CIA Whistleblower: Who Actually Runs The US Government? - John Kiriakou - #1160

Episode of Modern Wisdom · October 8, 2026 · 2 h 36 min

Former CIA officer John Kiriakou tells Chris Williamson about the deep state, surveillance, China and Israeli espionage, famous intelligence operations, interrogation and CIA torture.

Summary

Chris Williamson interviewed former CIA counterterrorism officer and whistleblower John Kiriakou. Kiriakou said he had been told by a cabinet-level figure that he would not receive a presidential pardon because the CIA institutionally opposes it. He argued that a permanent career bureaucracy, rather than presidents or Congress, effectively controls US intelligence policy. He recounted being told not to report a lost source to Congress, explained the US classification system, and claimed most classified material need not be classified.

Kiriakou expressed concern over mass surveillance, citing national security letters under the Patriot Act, the Vault 7 leaks, and the CIA's early investment in Palantir. He named China as the foreign power he most worried about, arguing that it buys influence while the US overspends on defense, and called Israel the greatest immediate infiltration threat. He described the asset acquisition cycle, the Kim Philby affair, and MKUltra, which he called a failure, alongside a first-hand account of a hypnosis session with a witness to a Greek terrorist assassination.

The pair discussed notable operations including Israel's Hezbollah pager attack, which Kiriakou praised as genius despite calling it technically a war crime, the hunt for Mir Aimal Kansi, the capture of Carlos the Jackal, the Eichmann abduction, and Agent Garbo. Kiriakou argued that torture does not work and is illegal, detailed CIA enhanced interrogation techniques, and said most Guantanamo detainees were innocent. Later segments covered lie detection, walk-in sources, Uday Hussein, the failed Tennessee execution of Christa Pike, and Kiriakou's hobbies, before he concluded that most intelligence officers are decent people and that Israeli intelligence is the world's best.

Chapters

  1. 0:00

    Credibility and the pardon

    Kiriakou explains why the CIA reportedly blocks his presidential pardon and discusses Philip Agee and Edward Snowden.

  2. 3:06

    The deep state and oversight

    Kiriakou argues career bureaucrats outlast presidents and that congressional oversight of the CIA is inadequate.

  3. 11:14

    Classification levels

    Kiriakou explains security classifications and compartments and claims classification is abused.

  4. 17:35

    Big tech, Palantir and surveillance

    Discussion of media consolidation, CIA investment in Palantir, national security letters and spying on Americans.

  5. 25:36

    China and foreign infiltration

    Kiriakou names China as the top threat, Israel as the top infiltration risk, and explains spy recruitment and Kim Philby.

  6. 39:32

    Future leaks and mass surveillance

    Kiriakou predicts future whistleblowing on tech surveillance and discusses Vault 7 and Gen Z attitudes to home cameras.

  7. 47:12

    Brainwashing, MKUltra and hypnosis

    Kiriakou calls MKUltra a failure and recounts a CIA hypnosis session with a Greek witness.

  8. 58:26

    Great intelligence operations

    Agent Garbo, the pager attack, the Kansi manhunt, renditions, 9/11, Eichmann and Carlos the Jackal.

  9. 1:29:18

    Persuasion, paranoia and lie detection

    Discussion of the Patriot Act as mass persuasion, Nestlé in Japan, tradecraft habits, lie detection and walk-ins.

  10. 1:46:32

    Interrogation and torture

    Kiriakou argues rapport-based interrogation works, torture does not, and details CIA techniques and Guantanamo.

  11. Linked moment · 2:08:31Skip to 2:08:31 using a listen link in the info box.

    2:08:31

    Uday Hussein and leadership

    Stories of Uday Hussein and a discussion of hereditary rule and dominance versus prestige leadership.

  12. 2:19:56

    Christa Pike's failed execution

    The hosts review the failed Tennessee lethal injection and capital punishment.

  13. 2:28:09

    Hobbies and closing thoughts

    Angry Birds, astrophotography, Fashion Week, and Kiriakou's view of intelligence officers and Israeli intelligence.

Key points

What was said, by whom, with the exact words. Timestamps jump to the moment.

  • John Kiriakou

    Kiriakou says a cabinet member told him he will not get a pardon because the CIA fears it would encourage other whistleblowers.

    “They fear that if you get a pardon, it'll open the door for other would-be whistleblowers who want to go public on issues of waste, fraud, abuse, illegality”

    Listen from 1:21 · Central Intelligence Agency

  • John Kiriakou

    Kiriakou argues career bureaucrats outlast presidents and simply ignore orders they dislike.

    “So they know that if a president orders them to do something they don't want to do, they just say, yes, Mr. President, and then they ignore him”

    Listen from 4:02 · Central Intelligence Agency

  • John Kiriakou

    Kiriakou recounts a station chief instructing him not to report an operation in which a source was lost to Congress.

    “We don't want to just throw this wrench into the works by telling them we just lost a source”

    Listen from 6:08 · Central Intelligence Agency

  • Chris Williamson

    Williamson argues that in organizations the person at the coalface, not the most senior, tends to hold real power and loyalty.

    “we usually assume the person who has the most seniority is the one that's closest to the information, that has the most respect, but it's quite reliably, it's the enforcer”

    Listen from 6:55

  • John Kiriakou

    Kiriakou says he does not trust Palantir and believes its data flows to the NSA and CIA.

    “So, I mean, do we trust Palantir not to just feed everything to NSA and CIA? I don't”

    Listen from 19:08 · Palantir Technologies

  • John Kiriakou

    Kiriakou says the CIA and NSA are legally barred from collecting on Americans yet do so daily.

    “It is patently illegal for the CIA to collect information on Americans. Yet they both do that every single day”

    Listen from 21:15 · Mass surveillance in the United States

  • John Kiriakou

    Kiriakou argues China expands influence by buying rather than invading, while the US overspends on defense.

    “the Chinese just don't attack other countries. They purchase them. They co-opt them”

    Listen from 26:04 · Chinese espionage in the United States

  • John Kiriakou

    Kiriakou names Israel as the greatest immediate threat of infiltration into the US government.

    “I think the greatest threat the greatest immediate threat in terms of infiltrating the government, like today, right now, is Israel”

    Listen from 30:56

  • John Kiriakou

    Kiriakou predicts future whistleblowers will reveal how deeply technology companies have infiltrated Americans' lives.

    “I think there are going to be whistleblowers in the future that come out and explain to us, explain to the American people just how deeply infiltrated our lives are”

    Listen from 40:31 · Mass surveillance in the United States

  • John Kiriakou

    Kiriakou characterizes MKUltra as a complete failure that caused deaths.

    “MKUltra ran from 1952 to 1975. It was a complete and utter failure”

    Listen from 48:44 · Project MKUltra

  • John Kiriakou

    Kiriakou called the pager operation technically a war crime but a work of genius that intelligence services will study for years.

    “I said, intelligence services around the world are going to study this for years to come”

    Listen from 1:04:35 · 2024 Lebanon electronic device attacks

  • John Kiriakou

    Kiriakou calls the passage of the Patriot Act the most successful mass behavioral campaign because Americans voluntarily surrendered civil liberties.

    “I think it probably has to be passage of the Patriot Act because it convinced all Americans to just voluntarily give up their civil liberties”

    Listen from 1:29:34 · Patriot Act

  • John Kiriakou

    Kiriakou argues the most effective interrogation method is respect, kindness and patience, as practiced by the FBI.

    “it's very simply to treat a person with respect and kindness and show great patience”

    Listen from 1:46:48 · Enhanced interrogation techniques

  • John Kiriakou

    Kiriakou asserts torture does not work because victims say anything to make it stop.

    “Because the person being tortured will tell you anything he thinks you want to know just to get you to stop torturing them”

    Listen from 1:54:07 · Enhanced interrogation techniques

  • John Kiriakou

    Kiriakou argues torture laws never changed, only American behavior, citing prosecutions of waterboarding in 1945 and 1968.

    “The law never changed. We changed. So if you want to torture, if that's the country you want to be, okay, you can have that position, but you have to change the law”

    Listen from 1:55:09 · Enhanced interrogation techniques

  • John Kiriakou

    Kiriakou says the CIA killed prisoners using the cold cell technique, which was never authorized.

    “We murdered people with that technique. Murdered them. And the Justice Department never allowed anybody to murder a prisoner”

    Listen from 1:59:35 · Enhanced interrogation techniques

  • John Kiriakou

    Kiriakou claims almost all of Guantanamo's roughly 770 detainees were innocent.

    “770 people and almost every single one of them was innocent”

    Listen from 2:08:02 · Guantanamo Bay detention camp

  • John Kiriakou

    Kiriakou says most intelligence officers are bright, patriotic public servants rather than right-wing ideologues.

    “most of the people involved in the intelligence community are very, very bright, very patriotic people who want to do nothing more than to serve the American people”

    Listen from 2:32:52 · Central Intelligence Agency

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From the publisher

John Kiriakou is a former CIA counterterrorism officer, intelligence whistleblower, journalist, and author. Expect to learn who’s actually controlling the US government, what John thinks of the new Paramount/Warner Bros. Skydance Merger, why we should be worried about and taking China more seriously, if brainwashing is real in CIA interrogation techniques, the most impressive CIA operations they pulled off, why John plays Angry Birds every morning and much more… Sponsors: Get up to $350 off the Eight Sleep Pod 6 at https://eightsleep.com/modernwisdom Get a Free Sample Pack of LMNT’s most popular flavours with your first purchase at https://drinklmnt.com/modernwisdom Get 160+ lab tests for just $365 and save an extra $25 at https://functionhealth.com/modernwisdom Get 35% off your first subscription on the best supplements from Momentous at https://livemomentous.com/modernwisdom See discounts for all the products I use and recommend: ⁠https://chriswillx.com/deals⁠ Get ChatGPT to explore ideas, solve problems, and learn faster at ⁠https://chatgpt.com Timestamps: (00:00) Why Should We Believe an Ex-CIA Agent? (00:44) Will John Ever Receive a Presidential Pardon? (03:25) Who Really Controls America? (11:32) Inside the CIA’s Levels of Security (15:26) The CIA’s Most Classified Operations (16:44) Does the CIA Classify Embarrassing Information? (17:54) Could Big Tech Become More Powerful Than the CIA? (20:37) Is the CIA Spying on American Citizens? (25:54) Why We Should Be Worried About China (30:53) How Foreign Spies Infiltrate the US Government (39:50) What Will CIA Whistleblowers Be Leaking in 10 Years? (43:18) Is Mass Surveillance the Price of Safety? (47:51) Is Brainwashing Real? (58:45) The Chicken Farmer Who Brought Down Hitler (01:03:30) Inside Operation Grim Beeper (01:06:03) The Greatest Intelligence Operations Ever (01:11:41) Can America Legally Kidnap Foreign Nationals? (01:17:20) Was 9/11 the Most Complex Intelligence Operation Ever? (01:20:47) The Location an…

Summary, chapters and key points were generated from the episode transcript on October 24, 2026. Quotes are checked word for word against the transcript.

Categories: Government·History·Politics