2026 Finals Lessons, Giannis’s Next Stop, Brunson’s Apex, and Mike Brown’s Magic Touch With Doc Rivers

Episode of The Bill Simmons Podcast · June 17, 2026 · 1 h 60 min

Bill Simmons and Doc Rivers break down the Knicks' 2026 NBA Finals win over the Spurs, Jalen Brunson's legacy, Mike Brown's coaching, and Giannis trade scenarios.

Summary

Bill Simmons hosted former NBA coach Doc Rivers in studio to review the 2026 NBA Finals, in which the New York Knicks beat the San Antonio Spurs. Rivers, who played for both franchises, argued the series turned after Game 3 when Knicks coach Mike Brown complained publicly about fouls, and highlighted Stephon Castle's foul trouble during Jalen Brunson's comeback in Game 4. The two discussed Victor Wembanyama's development, including the need for a face-up game and his minutes limitations, De'Aaron Fox's struggles as a closer, and Dylan Harper's promise.

Simmons explained why he moved Brunson to 41st in his all-time rankings, ahead of Luka Dončić, Steve Nash and Jason Kidd, arguing that being the best player on a title team outweighs statistics. Rivers agreed, contending that great players must leave room for teammates, and criticized James Harden's ball-dominant style. Rivers praised Mike Brown's bench usage, the Knicks' challenge system, and front-office executives Leon Rose and Wes Wilcox, and reminisced about the 1993 Knicks, Kevin Garnett, Magic Johnson, the 2012 Celtics–Heat series and other playoff what-ifs.

In the second half they discussed Giannis Antetokounmpo trade speculation. Rivers said inaccurate reports damaged the Bucks' season, that Giannis had told him he wanted to stay, and predicted he would be traded to an Eastern Conference team. They surveyed possible destinations including Boston, Miami, the Clippers, Orlando and Houston, then covered coaches' concerns about too many outside voices around players, Scott Foster as the league's best referee, young players Rivers expects to rise such as VJ Edgecombe, the upcoming NBA draft, and the Eastern Conference outlook.

Chapters

  1. 3:01

    Finals big picture

    Rivers says he wanted more basketball and argues the series turned after Mike Brown complained about fouls following Game 3.

  2. 9:56

    Wembanyama, Fox and Harper

    The pair discuss Wembanyama's minutes and needed post moves, Fox's decline as a closer, and Harper's promise.

  3. 18:14

    Brunson's place in history

    Simmons defends ranking Brunson 41st all-time and Rivers argues winning and leadership define great players.

  4. 21:56

    1993 Knicks and historical what-ifs

    Rivers recalls the 1993 loss to the Bulls, Dominique Wilkins, Magic Johnson's competitiveness and Kevin Garnett.

  5. 34:56

    Mike Brown and the Knicks' construction

    Rivers credits Tibbs's foundation, Brown's bench usage and challenge system, and the Knicks' front office.

  6. 45:30

    Harden, LeBron and learning to win

    They compare Brunson to Harden and Luka, and discuss LeBron's growth, the 2012 Celtics, and playoff margins.

  7. 1:07:36

    Giannis trade speculation

    Rivers describes the damage trade reports did to the Bucks and weighs destinations like Boston, Miami, the Clippers and Orlando.

  8. 1:25:08

    Coaching concerns in 2026

    Rivers says coaches worry about too many voices around players and personal brands making buy-in harder.

  9. 1:28:30

    2007 lottery envelope and Celtics memories

    Simmons shows Rivers the 2007 draft lottery envelope, prompting stories about tanking and Dr. McKeon's medical calls.

  10. 1:30:43

    Giannis prediction, refs and coaches

    Rivers predicts Giannis goes East, names Scott Foster the best referee and praises Mike Brown and Brad Stevens.

  11. 1:37:10

    Rising players and the East outlook

    Rivers picks Edgecombe and Castle as risers and the pair survey Eastern Conference contenders and team-building.

  12. 1:47:23

    Game-deciding plays and wrap-up

    They dissect Fox's layup, Wembanyama's turnover and the OG Anunoby tip, then discuss golf and Larry.

Key points

What was said, by whom, with the exact words. Timestamps jump to the moment.

  • Linked moment · 3:01Skip to 3:01 using a listen link in the info box.

    Doc Rivers

    Rivers contends that Castle's foul trouble in Game 4 was overlooked and allowed Brunson's big comeback stretch.

    “So Brunson, that whole 29-point stretch... did it without having to deal with Castle. Yeah. And I thought that was huge for the Knicks and for Brunson”

    Listen from 3:13 · 2026 NBA Finals

  • Doc Rivers

    Rivers argues the Finals turned after Game 3 when Mike Brown complained about fouls, after which officiating favored Brunson.

    “But I thought where the game and the series changed was after game three”

    Listen from 4:19 · 2026 NBA Finals

  • Doc Rivers

    Rivers says the Knicks' edge in close games came from a veteran team knowing its late-game identity and having a closer.

    “the Knicks know exactly who they are the last five minutes of a game. They know exactly what they're running”

    Listen from 7:15 · 2026 NBA Finals

  • Doc Rivers

    Rivers believes Wembanyama's limited minutes reflect a league-wide failure to ramp players up toward the playoffs.

    “I think it's a league problem as much as a Wimby problem”

    Listen from 11:03 · San Antonio Spurs

  • Doc Rivers

    Rivers says Wembanyama needs to develop a Tim Duncan–style face-up game because it defeats double teams.

    “just the face-up to me is because you can't double-team him. He sees you coming. He will pick you apart”

    Listen from 17:15 · San Antonio Spurs

  • Bill Simmons

    Simmons explains he moved Brunson to 41st all-time, ahead of Nash, Kidd and Luka, because being the best player on a title team is what matters most.

    “I put him 41, and I put him ahead of guys like Nash and Kidd and Luka”

    Listen from 19:09 · The Book of Basketball

  • Doc Rivers

    Rivers argues greatness is misjudged when it ignores winning and leadership, saying Brunson led rather than merely played his team to a title.

    “And Brunson led their team to an NBA title. He didn't just play his team to an NBA title”

    Listen from 19:57 · New York Knicks

  • Doc Rivers

    Rivers praises Mike Brown for coaching an excellent series, particularly his trust in bench players and the Knicks' challenge system.

    “The other thing with Mike Brown, he used the hell out of his bench. Right. He really did. I thought Mike Brown coached an amazing series”

    Listen from 40:47 · NBA coaching

  • Doc Rivers

    Rivers says Harden's ball-dominant style doesn't give teammates room to be great and is not a winning approach.

    “See, James doesn't give everybody else enough room to be great. He is the only one that can be great on this team”

    Listen from 46:49 · James Harden playoff legacy

  • Doc Rivers

    Rivers says inaccurate trade reports damaged the Bucks and that Giannis repeatedly told him he wasn't going anywhere.

    “He told me that several times. Coach, I'm going nowhere. He told me long before the trade deadline”

    Listen from 1:09:25 · Giannis Antetokounmpo trade speculation

  • Bill Simmons

    Simmons says he hopes the Celtics don't trade for Giannis, citing the risk of aging big men in their 14th season.

    “I kind of hope the Celtics don't trade for him because I think it's risky because this will be his 14th year in the league”

    Listen from 1:11:03 · Giannis Antetokounmpo trade speculation

  • Doc Rivers

    Rivers predicts Giannis will be traded, likely to an Eastern Conference team, and that any deal will involve three teams.

    “If it does happen. It'll be three teams”

    Listen from 1:15:53 · Giannis Antetokounmpo trade speculation

  • Doc Rivers

    Rivers says he wouldn't be surprised if the Clippers were involved in a Giannis trade given Steve Ballmer's financial resources.

    “I actually wouldn't be surprised at all if the Clippers were involved in this at all. With the financial ability of Steve Ballmer”

    Listen from 1:16:01 · Los Angeles Clippers

  • Doc Rivers

    Rivers says coaches' biggest current worry is the number of outside voices—skill trainers, medical staff, agents—around players.

    “I think a lot of them are concerned with how many the outside force is touching their players. There's just too many people”

    Listen from 1:25:25 · NBA coaching

  • Doc Rivers

    Rivers names Scott Foster the best referee of the season, citing his improved people skills.

    “It's not just his refereeing. Where Scott has improved is his people skills”

    Listen from 1:32:46 · NBA officiating

  • Doc Rivers

    Rivers predicts VJ Edgecombe will become an elite defensive player in the NBA.

    “But he's going to be an elite defensive player in the NBA. Elite. That's coming”

    Listen from 1:37:48

  • Bill SimmonsPrediction · due Dec 2026

    Simmons predicts LeBron James will sign with the Golden State Warriors, which Rivers doubts.

    “I think he's going to Golden State. I really do. I think that's going to happen”

    Listen from 1:40:54

  • Doc Rivers

    Rivers argues Sam Presti learned that acquiring role players like Caruso and Hartenstein, not just stars, changed the Thunder.

    “You know what changed their team? He went out and got Caruso and Hardenstein”

    Listen from 1:45:13 · Oklahoma City Thunder

  • Doc Rivers

    Rivers says he would have called a timeout before Wembanyama's turnover only because the Spurs are so young.

    “The only reason I would have called it, and I said it right away, is because they're so young”

    Listen from 1:49:12 · 2026 NBA Finals

People

In the conversation

  • Bill SimmonsSportswriter and founder of The Ringer, host of The Bill Simmons Podcast
  • Doc RiversMilwaukee Bucks head coach

Discussed

Topics

More from The Bill Simmons Podcast

From the publisher

The Ringer’s Bill Simmons is joined by Doc Rivers to talk about the NBA Finals, Knicks coaching, Giannis trades, and much, much more! (0:00) Intro (2:37) Doc Rivers’s NBA Finals reaction, Brunson’s greatness, and Mike Brown’s coaching (01:07:44) Giannis’s next stop, worries for coaches in 2026, and best current referees Host: Bill Simmons Guest: Doc Rivers Producers: Chia Hao Tat and Eduardo Ocampo Brought to you by PayPal. Learn more at paypal.comThe Ringer is committed to responsible gaming. Please visit https://fanduel.com/playwithaplan to learn more about the resources and helplines Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Summary, chapters and key points were generated from the episode transcript on September 29, 2026. Quotes are checked word for word against the transcript.

Categories: Basketball·Sports News