The Emotion Few Talk About, But Many Feel
Episode of The Curiosity Shop with Brené Brown and Adam Grant · April 23, 2026 · 60 min
Brené Brown and Adam Grant discuss shame, guilt, humiliation, and embarrassment, how shame fuels violence and control, shame resilience, and imposter syndrome.
Summary
Brené Brown and Adam Grant devoted this episode of The Curiosity Shop to shame. Brown laid out her framework of the four self-conscious emotions, distinguishing shame ("I am bad") from guilt ("I did something bad"), and Grant cited research suggesting guilt drives repair in relationships and more responsible leadership. Brown said new research had changed her view of humiliation, citing studies by Susan Harter, Jeff Elison, and Linda Hartling linking humiliation, rather than bullying alone, to violence, and redefining humiliation as internalized public shaming.
Grant, who said he could not recall ever feeling shame, asked why adults fail to outgrow it. Brown pointed to conditional love in upbringing, perfectionism, and temperament, and both agreed that nature effects are often underestimated. Brown argued that shame is used as a tool of control in classrooms, marketing, social media, and workplaces, illustrating with a teacher who humiliated a fourth-grader. She described shame needing silence, secrecy, and judgment to grow, with empathy as its antidote, and outlined the Stone Center's strategies of disconnection (moving away, toward, or against) through a story of a hurtful encounter in a school carpool line.
The hosts then discussed unwanted identities as shame triggers and connected shame to imposter syndrome. Grant cited Basima Tewfik's research that occasional imposter thoughts can motivate persistence and learning, while Brown argued some cultures and leaders deliberately induce imposter feelings. In closing, Brown urged viewing shame and humiliation through both micro and macro lenses, criticized the current U.S. administration for humiliating allies, invoked Gisèle Pelicot's refusal to carry shame, and listed workplace shame triggers, chief among them the fear of irrelevance, which she tied to AI.
Chapters
- 1:24
Introduction and the 'shamay' story
Brown opens with a story about a domestic violence shelter group renaming shame, and the hosts banter about Michigan's national championship.
- 3:38
The one, two, threes of shame
Brown explains why shame goes undiscussed and distinguishes shame from guilt, while Grant argues guilt is adaptive.
- 9:38
New research on humiliation
Brown explains how studies linking humiliation to school shootings and violence changed her view of humiliation.
- 16:47
What is humiliation?
Brown defines embarrassment and humiliation and explains how self-conscious emotions are individualized.
- 21:02
Why don't people outgrow shame?
Grant asks why adults still feel shame, and they discuss perfectionism, temperament, and shame as a tool of control in schools and advertising.
- 31:16
Helping people out of shame
Brown describes empathy as shame's antidote and the strategies of disconnection, illustrated by her carpool-line story.
- 39:51
Reconnecting the prefrontal cortex
The hosts discuss mantras and techniques for regaining composure during shame, and unwanted identities as shame triggers.
- 44:22
Shame and imposter syndrome
Grant and Brown debate imposter syndrome, Tewfik's research, gender differences, and engineered self-doubt.
- 49:48
Takeaways and macro-level humiliation
Brown urges micro and macro lenses on shame and humiliation, citing U.S. politics and Gisèle Pelicot, and Grant connects shame to past hauntings.
- 53:20
Shame at work
Brown lists workplace shame triggers, led by fear of irrelevance amid AI, and the hosts share final insights on shame shields.
Key points
What was said, by whom, with the exact words. Timestamps jump to the moment.
- Brené Brown
Brown frames shame with three premises: everyone has it, no one wants to talk about it, and not talking about it increases it.
“One, we all have it. Two, no one wants to talk about it. And three, the less you talk about it, the more you have it”
- Brené Brown
Brown distinguishes shame as a focus on the self and guilt as a focus on behavior.
“Shame, the best way I explain it, shame is I am bad and guilt is I did something bad”
- Adam Grant
Grant argues guilt is functional, citing research that guilt-prone leaders are more responsible.
“leaders who are prone to guilt are actually more responsible leaders because they worry about letting others down and they try to do the right thing”
- Brené Brown
Brown says new evidence overturned her earlier views about humiliation.
“So we have new evidence and everything I said before about humiliation was wrong”
- Brené Brown
Brown reports research indicating bullied individuals become violent specifically when humiliation accompanies the bullying.
“Their study suggests that bullying alone does not lead to aggression. Instead, individuals who are bullied become violent specifically when feelings of humiliation accompany the bullying”
- Brené Brown
Brown defines humiliation, based on recent studies, as internalized public shaming.
“what I think is the definition of how I would think about humiliation based on these studies is internalized public shaming”
- Brené Brown
Brown argues perfectionism is one of the most common expressions of shame.
“Perfectionism, like when perfectionism is driving, shame is riding shotgun”
- Adam Grant
Grant says developmental psychology and behavioral genetics convinced him people overestimate nurture and underestimate nature.
“I think overall we overestimate nurture effects and underestimate nature effects”
- Brené Brown
Brown reports that most adults her team interviewed recall a shaming school experience that changed how they saw themselves as learners.
“85% of all adults we've interviewed over two decades can remember something so shaming that happened at school”
- Brené Brown
Brown argues shame underpins much of capitalism, advertising, and media by selling products that promise to make people lovable.
“Shame is how a lot of pillars of capitalism are built in work and certainly advertising and media”
- Brené Brown
Brown says shame grows through silence, secrecy, and judgment.
“it needs three things to grow exponentially into every corner and crevice of your life. Silence, secrecy, and judgment”
- Brené Brown
Brown argues empathy is the antidote to shame because it shows people they are seen and not alone.
“Shame cannot survive empathy because what empathy does is empathy first and foremost helps us believe and see I can be seen and I'm not alone”
- Brené Brown
Brown describes, citing the Stone Center, how people protect themselves from shame by withdrawing, people-pleasing, or fighting shame with shame.
“One, when we're in shame, we move away. We withdraw, we hide. Two, we move toward, we people please”
- Brené Brown
Brown says her physical signs of shame mirror a trauma response, which helps her recognize it.
“time slows down, I get tunnel vision, my armpits tingle, It is the exact same we have found in the research for 20 years, trauma response”
- Adam Grant
Grant recommends using a values-based mantra to cope with others' attempts to shame.
“My favorite one is, I'm not going to let other people define my worth”
- Brené Brown
Brown says current shame research identifies unwanted identity as the key elicitor of shame.
“a lot of the research on shame now will talk about unwanted identity. is really the quintessential elicitor of shame, is unwanted identity”
Linked moment · 46:16Skip to 46:16 using a listen link in the info box.
Adam GrantGrant cites Basima Tewfik's research finding that frequent imposter thoughts lead people to work more persistently and learn more.
“she finds that when people have those thoughts more often, they actually end up working more persistently”
- Brené Brown
Brown says her early academic imposter feelings were partly engineered to drive deference to tenured faculty.
“early in my academic career, I had a lot of imposter syndrome and it was engineered”
- Adam Grant
Grant suggests the gender difference in imposter syndrome lies less in prevalence than in how women internalize it.
“people stereotype it as a problem that's more pronounced among women than men. But what I didn't get until just now is, but men don't internalize it the same way”
- Brené Brown
Brown criticizes the current U.S. administration for publicly humiliating European allies.
“Look at the current administration in the U.S. humiliating every day for the last three weeks, Europe, our allies”
- Brené Brown
Brown says her research has consistently found fear of irrelevance to be the top workplace shame trigger, which she links to AI.
“the number one shame trigger at work across the board has not changed in our research over 20 years. The fear of irrelevance”
- Brené Brown
Brown argues AI is presenting in workplaces more as a trust and agency issue than a skills issue.
“I don't even think AI is presenting as a skills issue as much as it's presenting as a trust and agency issue”
People
In the conversation
- Brené BrownAmerican research professor and author on vulnerability, shame, and courage
- Adam GrantAmerican organizational psychologist, Wharton professor, and author
Discussed
- Linda HartlingResearcher associated with the Stone Center at Wellesley who studies humiliation
- Susan HarterDevelopmental psychologist who studied humiliation among school shooters
- Jeff ElisonPsychologist who co-authored research on humiliation with Susan Harter
- Basima TewfikMIT Sloan professor researching imposter thoughts
- Rebecca SchaumbergResearcher whose work links guilt proneness to responsible leadership
- Gisèle PelicotFrench woman whose husband drugged her and invited strangers to rape her; she waived anonymity at trial
- Ruchika TulshyanCo-author of the HBR article Stop Telling Women They Have Imposter Syndrome
- Jodi-Ann BureyCo-author of the HBR article Stop Telling Women They Have Imposter Syndrome
- Sue AshfordOrganizational scholar and mentor of Adam Grant who speaks about past hauntings
Topics
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More from The Curiosity Shop with Brené Brown and Adam Grant
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From the publisher
From classrooms and locker rooms to workplaces and social media, Adam and Brené trace how shame and humiliation are used to control behavior and even fuel violence. They explore what causes shame, why our self-protective responses backfire, and how we can handle it more effectively. They also unpack the messy overlap between imposter syndrome and cultural pressures toward self-doubt. You can find The Curiosity Shop on YouTube and Instagram (@thecuriosityshop). Chapter Titles + Timestamps: 0:00 - Introduction 2:10 - The One, Two, Threes of Shame 8:52 - The New Research on Humiliation 14:04 - What Is Humiliation? 18:30 - Why Don’t People Outgrow Shame? 29:09 - How to Help People Out of Shame? 38:05 - Reconnecting Your Prefrontal Cortex Post-Shame 42:55 - How Does Shame Relate to Imposter Syndrome? 50:10 - Biggest Takeaways About Shame, Guilt, Humiliation, and Embarrassment Why Feelings of Guilt May Signal Leadership Potential - Marina Krakovsky, 2012, Insights by Stanford Business (Introducing the work of Schaumberg) Unwanted identities: A key variable in shame-anger links and gender differences in shame - Ferguson et al., Sex Roles Humiliation: Causes, correlates, and consequences - Elison & Harter, 2007, from The self‑conscious emotions: Theory and research Healing Humiliation: From Reaction to Creative Action - Hartling & Linder, 2016, Journal of Counseling & Development Shame and Humiliation: From Isolation to Relational Transformation - Hartling et al., Stone Center for Developmental Services and Studies Strengthening resilience in a risky world: It’s all about relationships - Hartling, 2003, Women & Therapy Stop Telling Women They Have Imposter Syndrome - Ruchika Tulshyan & Jodi-Ann Burey, 2021, Harvard Business Review How imposter syndrome can be your superpower - MIT Sloan Office Of Communications, 2025 (Introducing the work of Basima Tewfik) Unmasking the Impostor - MIT Sloan Office of Communications, 2025 (Tewfik, Debunking 4 myths) Listening to shame,…
Summary, chapters and key points were generated from the episode transcript on September 27, 2026. Quotes are checked word for word against the transcript.