#2506 - Michelle Thaller

Episode of The Joe Rogan Experience · May 28, 2026 · 2 h 44 min

Joe Rogan and astrophysicist Michelle Thaller discuss black holes, relativity, quantum entanglement, the Big Bang, NASA missions, AI, consciousness and psychedelics.

Summary

Retired NASA astrophysicist Michelle Thaller joined Joe Rogan for a wide-ranging conversation about astronomy and physics. Thaller explained the scale of the galaxy, Saturn's hexagonal storm, the planned Dragonfly mission to Titan, Soviet landings on Venus, exoplanet detection through transit spectroscopy, and the discovery of helium in sunlight in 1868. She described relativistic time dilation as it affects GPS satellites and astronauts, Einstein's block-universe view of time, and quantum entanglement, which she suggested could conceivably be harnessed by advanced civilizations.

The pair discussed artificial intelligence as a possible successor to humanity, with Rogan arguing AI is a new form of life and that human integration with it may be necessary for survival, and both raising concerns about job loss and meaning. Thaller recounted the Event Horizon Telescope's black hole image, the NICER neutron star mission, James Webb observations of 'little red dots' possibly representing seeds of supermassive black holes, LIGO's detection of gravitational waves, the cosmic microwave background, and the origin of the term 'Big Bang' with Fred Hoyle and Georges Lemaître.

Thaller emphasized scientific humility and the limits of reproducible measurement, describing fielding calls at NASA from people reporting time travel or alien encounters with compassion. Rogan advocated for psychedelics, criticizing the Controlled Substances Act of 1970 and describing DMT and psilocybin; Thaller, who spoke of grief after her husband's death, said such therapies should be optional. She closed with the OSIRIS-REx sample from asteroid Bennu containing all DNA and RNA nucleobases, and praised NASA's collaborative team culture.

Chapters

0:09
Scale of the cosmos and stardust
Thaller and Rogan discuss the galaxy's scale, light pollution and how humans are made of elements forged in stars.
7:30
Planets, moons and exoplanets
Thaller describes Saturn's hexagon, the Dragonfly mission to Titan, Venus landers, and detecting exoplanet atmospheres via spectroscopy.
19:58
Relativity and the nature of time
Thaller explains time dilation for GPS satellites and astronauts, Einstein's light clock and the idea that all time exists at once.
31:04
Quantum entanglement and advanced civilizations
The pair discuss entanglement, speculation about how advanced beings might travel, and the pace of technological progress.
39:44
AI, meaning and the future of work
Rogan and Thaller consider AI as a successor lifeform, collective consciousness, job loss anxiety and sources of meaning.
1:02:57
Black holes and neutron stars
Thaller recounts the Event Horizon Telescope image, the NICER mission, Webb's little red dots and stars orbiting Sagittarius A*.
1:26:51
The Big Bang and the cosmic microwave background
Thaller explains the observable universe, gravitational waves detected by LIGO, the expansion of space, and the origins of the Big Bang idea.
Linked moment · 1:53:31Skip to 1:53:31 using a listen link in the info box.
1:53:31
Limits of science and unexplained experiences
Thaller discusses scientific humility, reproducibility, calls from reported time travelers, and her hope for evidence of extraterrestrial life.
2:04:50
Perception, psychedelics and grief
Rogan advocates for psychedelics including DMT and psilocybin, plays a Larry Hagman clip, and Thaller speaks of grief and therapeutic potential.
2:16:00
Quantum weirdness and benevolent AI
Thaller discusses interferometry, multiple-worlds interpretations, quantum computing, and hopes that superintelligence would be compassionate.
2:29:10
OSIRIS-REx and NASA teamwork
Thaller describes the Bennu sample's nucleobases and the collaborative culture that made NASA missions succeed.

Key points

What was said, by whom, with the exact words. Timestamps jump to the moment.

Michelle Thaller Prediction · due Dec 2028
Thaller said NASA hopes to launch the Dragonfly mission to Titan around 2028, with a six-to-seven-year journey.
“NASA's hoping to launch a new mission to one of the moons of Saturn, hopefully in like 2028”
Listen from 10:26 · Dragonfly (spacecraft)
Michelle Thaller
Thaller said the first hard chemical evidence of life beyond Earth may come from a planet around another star rather than Mars or outer-planet moons.
“I would never have thought the first evidence of life outside the Earth, like a really hard chemical scientific evidence, would be on a planet around another star”
Listen from 14:48 · Exoplanets
Michelle Thaller
Thaller said that without correcting for relativistic time effects, GPS positions would drift about six miles in a single day.
“if we didn't take into account the time difference these things are in, that we'd be about six miles off. I mean, in a single day”
Listen from 20:58 · Time dilation
Michelle Thaller
Thaller said astronauts spending a year on the space station return about one hundredth of a second younger due to motion-based time dilation.
“If you are on the space station for a year, you come back about one one-hundredth of a second younger than you should be”
Listen from 22:32 · Time dilation
Michelle Thaller
Thaller argued that no one yet knows what time fundamentally is and that answering this would require a new revolution in physics.
“I don't think we have an answer to what time is. What are we measuring? I think right there, I think you're asking for the next revolution in physics that we don't have yet”
Listen from 28:52 · Time dilation
Michelle Thaller
Thaller said instantaneous communication via entanglement, as depicted in The Three-Body Problem, could be theoretically possible.
“I mean, that's fantastic science. And as far as I can tell, that could be theoretically possible”
Listen from 35:05 · Quantum entanglement
Joe Rogan
Rogan argued that AI is not artificial but a new kind of life that humans are creating.
“I don't think it's artificial at all. I think it's a life. It's just a different kind of life that we're creating. It's an earthling”
Listen from 40:27 · Artificial intelligence
Joe Rogan
Rogan argued that integration with AI is likely the only way the human species truly survives.
“especially AI as it integrates with us, which I think is the only way that the human species really truly survives”
Listen from 43:32 · Artificial intelligence
Joe Rogan
Rogan said recent graduates face heightened anxiety because AI may eliminate their fields while they carry student debt.
“they have a degree that might not be worth anything because AI might completely eradicate their field. That's a real concern”
Listen from 52:19 · Artificial intelligence
Michelle Thaller
Thaller said current models of dense matter fail to predict observed neutron star sizes, implying new physics is needed.
“pretty much every model so far doesn't match what we actually measure from these things. We cannot describe them yet. We need better physics”
Listen from 1:14:17 · Neutron stars
Michelle Thaller
Thaller said Webb's little red dots may be black holes surrounded by pseudo-stars, seeds of supermassive black holes, an explanation that fits the data well.
“at the moment, it's one of the best explanations we have. And it fits the data quite well”
Listen from 1:18:27 · James Webb Space Telescope
Michelle Thaller
Thaller suggested gravitational waves might eventually allow scientists to observe the universe beyond the point where it is opaque to light, possibly back to the Big Bang.
“Waves in space and time itself might be the way we can see even farther back into the universe”
Listen from 1:34:29 · LIGO
Michelle Thaller
Thaller said she does not believe current models of the earliest moments of the Big Bang are literally correct, because gravity and quantum mechanics are not yet reconciled.
“Do I think this is right, literally? No. I think we've got a lot to understand about how gravity works in high-density situations”
Listen from 1:51:29 · Big Bang
Michelle Thaller
Thaller said NASA scientists universally believe life exists elsewhere, finding life only on Earth untenable.
“All of us to a person at NASA thinks that there must be life out there. The idea that there's only life on the Earth seems untenable”
Listen from 2:00:10 · Exoplanets
Michelle Thaller
Thaller said she is not willing to dismiss people reporting alien or spiritual experiences as mentally ill, but science requires reproducible evidence beyond individual experience.
“no, I'm not willing to dismiss them as being mentally ill necessarily. I honestly don't know what it is, the experience”
Listen from 2:00:52
Michelle Thaller
Thaller said psilocybin should be an optional therapy for grief, reflecting on her husband's death.
“But I thought it should be a therapy, an optional therapy,”
Listen from 2:13:27
Joe Rogan
Rogan argued psychedelics were made illegal by the Nixon administration to target the civil rights and anti-war movements, not because of danger.
“the only reason why they're illegal was because of the Nixon administration, the Controlled Substances Act of 1970”
Listen from 2:13:55 · Controlled Substances Act
Michelle Thaller
Thaller said quantum computing may force people to confront how different reality is from what human senses perceive.
“I wonder if quantum computing is going to have us really have to confront what reality is, how different reality is from how our senses tell us it is”
Listen from 2:23:46 · Quantum computing
Michelle Thaller
Thaller said the Bennu sample contained all nucleobases of DNA and RNA, which she argued is not a coincidence for life's chemistry.
“all of the nucleobases of our DNA, not just little molecules, the letters of our DNA and our RNA are in that sample. We don't think that's a coincidence”
Listen from 2:30:41 · OSIRIS-REx

People

In the conversation

Joe RoganAmerican comedian and host of The Joe Rogan Experience
Michelle ThallerAmerican astrophysicist, science communicator and retired NASA executive

Discussed

Albert EinsteinPhysicist who developed the theory of relativity
Georges LemaîtreBelgian Jesuit priest and physicist who proposed the 'primordial atom'
Fred HoyleBritish cosmologist who coined the term 'Big Bang' in BBC radio broadcasts
David LathamAstronomer who was Thaller's college research advisor on exoplanet searches
Pierre JanssenFrench astronomer credited with detecting helium in sunlight in 1868
Michael ChorostAuthor with cochlear implants who wrote about hearing 'like a cyborg'
Larry HagmanDallas actor who said LSD removed his fear of death
Alan GuthMIT physicist who proposed cosmic inflation
Arno Penzias and Robert WilsonBell Labs scientists who discovered the cosmic microwave background
Galileo GalileiAstronomer who first resolved the Milky Way into stars with a telescope
Marc AndreessenVenture capitalist referenced on founders and ayahuasca
Dennis McKennaAmerican ethnopharmacologist

Topics

#2554 - Carlo Rovelli
The Joe Rogan Experience · Sep 15, 2026 · 2 h 38 min
Physicist Carlo Rovelli and Joe Rogan discuss relational quantum mechanics, time, consciousness, AI, nuclear risk, black holes, aliens, wildlife and the origins of war.

From the publisher

Michelle Thaller, PhD, is an astrophysicist, award-winning science communicator, and retired NASA executive who worked at NASA’s Goddard Space Flight Center and NASA Headquarters. Her work has appeared in documentaries, podcasts, and television programs on The Science Channel, History Channel, Discovery, National Geographic, NPR, and many other platforms.www.youtube.com/@mlthallerwww.drmichellethaller.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Summary, chapters and key points were generated from the episode transcript on September 28, 2026. Quotes are checked word for word against the transcript.

Categories: Astronomy·Physics·Technology