#2556 - Siddharth Kara

Episode of The Joe Rogan Experience · September 22, 2026 · 2 h 28 min

Siddharth Kara tells Joe Rogan about child and slave labor in Congo's cobalt mines and the slave ship Zorg that sparked abolition.

Summary

Siddharth Kara returned to The Joe Rogan Experience roughly four years after discussing "Cobalt Red" to report on continuing conditions in the Democratic Republic of the Congo's copper-cobalt belt. Drawing on a University of Nottingham report he called "Blood Batteries," Kara said satellite imagery showed large losses of forest and water bodies in the mining region and that water testing near Kolwezi found heavy metals at 10 to 950 times World Health Organization safety limits, with some village water sources hyperacidic. He estimated that at least 300,000 people dig for cobalt by hand on any given day, that more than a third work in conditions he called absolute slavery, and that roughly 30,000 are children. Kara argued that Western consumers and tech and electric-vehicle companies tolerate environmental and human destruction abroad that they would never accept at home, and urged listeners to reconsider annual device upgrades. He also relayed, without claiming verification, reports from Congolese contacts that Chinese state-run mining companies have been shipping uranium alongside copper and cobalt.

The conversation then turned to Kara's book "The Zorg," which he described as the story of the most consequential slave ship to cross the Atlantic. He traced the rise of the Atlantic slave trade from Portuguese navigation and the caravel through the Papal division of the world and the sugar economy, described the dungeons of Cape Coast Castle and the design of slave ships such as the Brooks, and recounted how the overloaded, off-course Zorg's crew threw roughly 130 to 140 Africans overboard to conserve water. The resulting insurance lawsuit brought by the ship's owner, Kara said, exposed the trade to the British public; an anonymous newspaper letter, which he claims to have identified as written by the abolitionist James Ramsey, reached Granville Sharp and helped ignite the organized abolition movement. Kara also discussed the £20 million compensation paid to British slave owners in 1833, a loan he said British taxpayers finished repaying only in 2015, and the unresolved debate over reparations sought by Jamaica and the Congo.

In the final stretch, Rogan argued that religious and moral frameworks, particularly Christianity, have provided ethical structure while noting atrocities committed in religion's name, and speculated that a sufficiently advanced artificial intelligence without human greed might distribute the earth's resources equitably and prevent war. Kara suggested such systems could be simulated with a built-in moral core but insisted that whatever technology arrives, companies like Apple could cheaply improve conditions at the bottom of their supply chains and bear an obligation to remediate the environmental and human damage already done in the Congo rather than walking away once recycling or new battery chemistries reduce demand.

Chapters

0:12
Returning to the Congo story
Rogan and Kara revisit their 2022 conversation and Kara explains why he cannot return to the Congo.
4:09
Environmental devastation and contaminated water
Kara presents findings from his 'Blood Batteries' report on deforestation and heavy-metal contamination around Kolwezi.
9:57
Colonial mining history and the scale of hand-digging
Kara traces copper and uranium extraction back to colonial times and quantifies the 300,000 artisanal miners working today.
13:23
Consumer choices, EVs and brake dust
Kara urges people to stop upgrading devices annually while Rogan raises particulate pollution from heavier electric vehicles.
20:11
Moral luck, nuclear power and China in Africa
The two discuss a pre-birth thought experiment about compassion, the difficulty of electrifying poor countries, and alleged Chinese uranium exports from Congo.
29:50
What 'artisanal mining' really means
Kara describes militia-run pits, child laborers and the day he was nearly killed and saved by a governor's stamp.
36:20
The Zorg and the birth of the Atlantic slave trade
Kara introduces his new book and explains how Portuguese navigation, papal division and sugar created the triangular trade.
43:22
Cape Coast Castle and the middle passage
Kara recounts the dungeons of Ghana's slave forts and the design and brutality of slave ships like the Brooks.
1:04:55
The Zorg's voyage and the massacre
Kara narrates how Robert Stubbs took over the off-course ship and the crew drowned about 130 Africans to save water.
1:17:10
Insurance, the trial and the abolition movement
Kara explains Lloyd's of London, the insurance lawsuit, the anonymous letter he attributes to James Ramsey, and Granville Sharp's campaign.
1:38:58
Reparations and compensation to slave owners
The pair debate reparations claims by Jamaica and Congo and the 1833 payout to British slave owners repaid by taxpayers until 2015.
1:55:59
Could AI run the world better?
Rogan speculates that a superior artificial intelligence without greed could end war and distribute resources equitably.
2:12:22
What tech companies owe the Congo
Kara argues Apple and others could cheaply improve mining conditions and must remediate the damage even after demand ends.

Key points

What was said, by whom, with the exact words. Timestamps jump to the moment.

Siddharth Kara
Kara argued that Western consumers accept environmental destruction abroad that they would never tolerate at home.
“That's the story, that we're okay destroying them and their world, so long as ours remains sacrosanct”
Listen from 6:12 · Cobalt mining in the Democratic Republic of the Congo
Siddharth Kara
Kara reported that water testing near Kolwezi found heavy metals far above World Health Organization safety limits.
“And there was between 10 and 950 times the World Health Organization maximum recommended limit for human safety of a range of heavy metals”
Listen from 6:36 · Cobalt mining in the Democratic Republic of the Congo
Siddharth Kara
Kara recommended that consumers stop upgrading phones and tablets annually to reduce demand-side pressure.
“do you have to upgrade the phone and the tablet every year just because the tech company tells you to?”
Listen from 12:11 · Cobalt mining in the Democratic Republic of the Congo
Siddharth Kara
Kara estimated that at least 300,000 people, including roughly 30,000 children, dig cobalt by hand in Congo on any given day.
“And on any given day, there are at least 300,000 people, men, women, and children, digging for cobalt with their bare hands and pickaxes and shovels”
Listen from 12:29 · Artisanal mining
Joe Rogan
Rogan asserted that living in heavily polluted cities shortens lifespan, partly because of brake dust particulates.
“And it's been proven that living in polluted, heavily populated cities lowers your lifespan”
Listen from 15:23 · Brake dust particulate pollution
Siddharth Kara
Kara said switching away from cobalt to lithium-based chemistries would not help, since a major lithium deposit in Congo has equally horrific conditions.
“One of the biggest lithium deposits now is in the Congo. And it just started shipping under this Chinese mining company in June of this year”
Listen from 17:45 · Cobalt mining in the Democratic Republic of the Congo
Siddharth Kara
Kara relayed unverified accounts that Chinese mining companies have been shipping Congolese uranium home alongside copper and cobalt, explaining China's nuclear buildup.
“every one of these Chinese state-run mining companies in the same tractor trailer that's got the copper and the cobalt and the nickel, they've got uranium on it too”
Listen from 26:09 · Uranium mining in the Congo
Siddharth Kara
Kara said Chinese companies operating in Africa apply no meaningful human rights standards.
“there's nothing by way of human rights standards when you're talking about Chinese companies operating in Africa”
Listen from 28:25 · Cobalt mining in the Democratic Republic of the Congo
Siddharth Kara
Kara called the Zorg the most consequential of the more than 40,000 slave ship voyages across the Atlantic.
“the Zorg is the most consequential slave ship that ever crossed the Atlantic”
Listen from 36:50 · The Zorg: A Tale of Greed and Murder That Inspired the Abolition of Slavery
Linked moment · 40:55Skip to 40:55 using a listen link in the info box.
Siddharth Kara
Kara noted that the hymn 'Amazing Grace' was written by John Newton, a former slave ship captain from Liverpool.
“So Amazing Grace is written by a slave trader”
Listen from 40:55 · Atlantic slave trade
Siddharth Kara
Kara stated that on the eve of the American Revolution, Jamaica's sugar exports were worth five times all exports of the thirteen colonies combined.
“the value of those sugar exports from Jamaica was five times the combined value of all 13 exports of everything from all 13 colonies”
Listen from 57:08 · Sugar plantation economy
Siddharth Kara
Kara said modern marine insurance, including Lloyd's of London, grew directly out of the slave trade.
“So every slave ship that crossed the Atlantic was insured. Insurance was born out of the slave trade”
Listen from 1:15:59 · Lloyd's of London
Siddharth Kara
Kara said he identified the previously anonymous letter-writer who exposed the Zorg massacre as the abolitionist James Ramsey.
“And I managed to figure out who it was. And he's an abolitionist named James Ramsey, a man of deep faith”
Listen from 1:29:04 · Abolitionism in the United Kingdom
Joe Rogan
Rogan argued that religion, and Christianity in particular, supplies a moral framework whose absence lets people treat others as property.
“in the absence of that moral framework, you can get people whose, their ideology looks at other human beings as property”
Listen from 1:32:02 · Abolitionism in the United Kingdom
Siddharth Kara
Kara said the reparations question is complicated and he holds no firm opinion, but concluded that something is owed to descendants of enslaved people.
“it's trillions and trillions and it's an impossible sum. But something is owed”
Listen from 1:38:58 · Reparations for slavery
Siddharth Kara
Kara said Britain compensated slave owners with a sum equal to 40% of the national budget, financed by a loan taxpayers repaid until 2015.
“the government took out a loan for that quantum. And the British taxpayer was repaying that loan up until 2015”
Listen from 1:43:43 · Slavery Abolition Act 1833
Joe Rogan
Rogan expressed hope that a superintelligent system could stop human war and resource domination.
“one day we're gonna get to a position where there will genuinely be a thing more intelligent than human beings that don't allow this anymore”
Listen from 1:56:39 · AI data centers
Joe Rogan
Rogan said it is entirely possible humans will create a digital life form far more intelligent than people and free of human moral failings.
“I think it is entirely possible that we create a digital life form that is far superior in intelligence to us. And doesn't have all of our moral failings”
Listen from 1:58:50 · AI data centers
Siddharth Kara
Kara argued that tech companies could improve supply-chain conditions at trivial cost relative to their balance sheets.
“There's literally nothing stopping them from allocating a de minimis amount of resources relative to their balance sheets and a handful of headcount to going down to the bottom of their supply chains and doing things better”
Listen from 2:13:19 · Apple Inc.
Siddharth Kara
Kara said companies cannot simply walk away once recycling replaces mined cobalt, because they have a moral obligation to repair the damage done.
“You created a catastrophe, a human rights and environmental catastrophe. And there's some moral obligation to repair the damage you've done”
Listen from 2:16:44 · Cobalt mining in the Democratic Republic of the Congo
Siddharth Kara
Kara reported that water around villages near Kolwezi tested hyperacidic, in the threes and fours on the pH scale.
“The rivers and streams and well water around the villages came back in the fours and threes. which is called hyperacidic. It's deadly”
Listen from 2:18:16 · Cobalt mining in the Democratic Republic of the Congo

People

In the conversation

Joe RoganAmerican comedian and host of The Joe Rogan Experience
Siddharth KaraAuthor and researcher on modern slavery, author of 'Cobalt Red' and 'The Zorg'

Discussed

John NewtonBritish slave ship captain who later became an abolitionist preacher and wrote 'Amazing Grace'
Granville SharpEnglish abolitionist described by Kara as the grandfather of the movement to abolish slavery
Olaudah EquianoFormerly enslaved writer in London who brought the anonymous Zorg letter to Granville Sharp
James RamseyAbolitionist whom Kara identifies as the author of the anonymous newspaper letter about the Zorg
Robert StubbsDeposed governor of Anomabu fort who took command of the Zorg and testified at the insurance trial
William GregsonLiverpool slave merchant and owner of the Zorg who filed the insurance claim
Lord MansfieldEarl of Mansfield, Chief Justice who presided over the Zorg insurance case
Frederick DouglassAmerican abolitionist who commemorated British emancipation and met Thomas Clarkson
Thomas ClarksonBritish abolitionist who gathered evidence against the slave trade and was the last survivor of the 1787 founding group
Christopher ColumbusGenoese navigator whose voyages opened Spanish colonization of the Americas
Mahatma GandhiIndian independence leader featured in a fable about modeling change
Taylor SheridanAmerican screenwriter and producer, creator of Tulsa King
Cecil RhodesBritish imperialist invoked as an example of colonial pillage

Topics

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From the publisher

Siddharth Kara, PhD, is the author of several books, including "Cobalt Red: How the Blood of the Congo Powers Our Lives," and, most recently, "The Zorg: A Tale of Greed and Murder That Inspired the Abolition of Slavery."https://us.macmillan.com/books/9781250348227/thezorg/www.nottingham.ac.uk/research/beacons-of-excellence/rights-lab/our-team/siddharth-kara/index.aspx Perplexity: Download the app or ask Perplexity anything at https://pplx.ai/rogan. 50% off your first box at https://www.thefarmersdog.com/rogan! MANSCAPED®: Get 15% off + free shipping on The Lawn Mower® Ultra Gen 6. Visit https://manscaped.com/joeroganexperience Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Summary, chapters and key points were generated from the episode transcript on September 27, 2026. Quotes are checked word for word against the transcript.

Categories: Society & Culture·History·Technology