#2567 - Mariana van Zeller
Episode of The Joe Rogan Experience · October 16, 2026 · 2 h 30 min
Joe Rogan and journalist Mariana van Zeller discuss romance and pig-butchering scams, Meta's profits from scam ads, Mexican cartels, the opioid crisis and drug policy.
Summary
Journalist Mariana van Zeller appeared to promote her National Geographic special "Super Scam Me," in which she created a fake persona, "Mary Zell," to be targeted by romance scammers. She described victims such as Leslie, who believed she was talking to Jon Bon Jovi, and argued that the loneliness epidemic drives romance scams and that society wrongly blames victims, noting that men are victimized as often as women but stay silent out of shame. She recounted her fake relationship with a supposed four-star general, a hospital stay during which she kept the scammer engaged in disguise, and a Houston widow turned money mule.
Van Zeller described forced-labor scam compounds in Myanmar and Cambodia and cited a Consumer Federation of America estimate that Americans lost $148 billion to online scams. She and Rogan discussed a Reuters investigation by Jeff Horwitz reporting that Meta internally estimated 15 billion scam ads a day and roughly 10% of 2024 revenue from scams and banned goods, and charged suspected scammers higher ad rates rather than banning them. Rogan also criticized counterfeit supplements on Amazon. Van Zeller highlighted a sextortion suicide case and the proposed Safe Platforms Act, arguing platforms should be held accountable.
The conversation turned to AI companions and humanoid robots, which Rogan warned could manipulate lonely users. Van Zeller then promoted her husband's Netflix series "The Fall of El Mayo," describing how El Chapo's son delivered Ismael "El Mayo" Zambada to U.S. authorities, and discussed cartel corruption, gun trafficking into Mexico, and an AP report that DEA agents in New Mexico let fentanyl pills circulate to build cases.
Finally, the two discussed drug policy. Van Zeller contrasted Portugal's successful decriminalization with Oregon's, criticized cuts to naloxone and test-strip funding, and argued for shifting money from enforcement to treatment. Rogan recalled her OxyContin Express reporting, criticized the Sackler family, and promoted ibogaine and other psychedelic therapies, describing his White House visit with Rick Perry and Bryan Hubbard and praising Donald Trump's executive order.
Chapters
- 0:13
Romance scams and Super Scam Me
Van Zeller explains her new special and the case of Leslie, who believed she was talking to Jon Bon Jovi, linking romance scams to loneliness.
- 8:10
AI companionship and victim shame
The hosts react to an AI dating cafe, and van Zeller discusses male victims' shame and the double victimization of scam victims.
- 12:34
Saying yes to every scam
Van Zeller recounts answering scam texts and confronting an Indian tech-support scammer.
- 15:37
Scam compounds in Southeast Asia
Van Zeller describes forced-labor scam cities in Myanmar and Cambodia and the pig-butchering playbook behind $148 billion in American losses.
- 30:08
Meta's profits from scam ads
They review the Reuters investigation into Meta's scam ad revenue and penalty bids, and Rogan digresses into counterfeit supplements on Amazon.
- 44:23
Sextortion and platform accountability
Van Zeller tells the story of Gavin Guffey and outlines the Safe Platforms Act, while Rogan compares it to AOL's early child-exploitation problem and corporate ethics.
- 1:07:19
Catfished by a fake general
Van Zeller describes her Mary Zell persona's relationship with a fake four-star general and the Houston widow being used as a money mule.
- 1:16:23
Loneliness, AI partners and robots
The pair discuss the loneliness epidemic, isolated young men, AI companions as potential manipulators, and household robots.
- 1:30:38
The Fall of El Mayo
Van Zeller recounts how El Chapo's son handed Ismael Zambada to U.S. authorities and the controversy over cooperation deals.
- 1:41:05
Cartel corruption, guns and fentanyl
They discuss political assassinations in Mexico, U.S. gun trafficking south, Fast and Furious, and DEA agents allowing fentanyl to circulate.
- 1:53:00
Drug policy and the opioid crisis
Van Zeller compares Portugal and Oregon decriminalization, and the two discuss the OxyContin Express, the Sacklers and the scale of opioid deaths.
- 2:12:40
Ibogaine, psychedelics and treating demand
Rogan promotes ibogaine and psychedelic therapy, and van Zeller argues for funding treatment over enforcement.
Key points
What was said, by whom, with the exact words. Timestamps jump to the moment.
- Mariana van Zeller
Van Zeller argues that loneliness is a major driver of romance scams.
“I think the loneliness epidemic is a huge part of this, quite frankly”
- Mariana van Zeller
Van Zeller argues that scam victims are not simply gullible, because scammers exploit universal emotions.
“what these scammers are so good at doing is that they prey on emotions that we all share, you know, love and trust and sometimes greed as well”
- Mariana van Zeller
Van Zeller says men fall victim to romance scams as often as women but are less willing to speak about it out of shame.
“men are as likely to falling victim to these scams as women, but they just have a lot more shame around it”
- Mariana van Zeller
Van Zeller says scam compounds were concentrated in Myanmar and Cambodia but are spreading elsewhere after crackdowns.
“Myanmar and Cambodia were the two main spots. But now, because there's been a crackdown in both countries, particularly in Cambodia, they're spreading to other places like Dubai”
- Mariana van Zeller
Van Zeller cites a Consumer Federation of America estimate that Americans lost $148 billion to online scams in the prior year.
“They've estimated that Americans lost $148 billion to online scams last”
- Mariana van Zeller
Van Zeller argues the focus should shift from victims to government failure to protect consumers and platform accountability.
“I think the question should be why isn't our government doing more to protect us?”
- Mariana van Zeller
Van Zeller reports that internal Meta documents estimated users were exposed to 15 billion scam ads per day.
“there were 15 billion ads every single day that the users of their platforms, WhatsApp, Instagram, Facebook, were exposed to”
- Joe Rogan
Rogan argues that, absent regulation, Meta chose to charge suspected scammers more instead of removing them.
“So they are regulating themselves. And what they chose to do is charge more”
- Joe Rogan
Rogan argues the supplement industry is rife with scams because it is largely unregulated.
“the supplement industry is a giant place for scams, unfortunately, because it is largely unchecked. It's unregulated”
- Mariana van Zeller
Van Zeller supports the Safe Platforms Act, which she says would make scams easier to report and hold platforms accountable.
“it's called the Safe Platforms Act, where they're actually trying to make it easy for people to report”
- Mariana van Zeller
Van Zeller notes that, unlike El Chapo, El Mayo pleaded guilty rather than cooperate.
“unlike El Chapo, who pled not guilty, he decided to plead guilty. And he's now facing life in prison”
- Mariana van Zeller
Van Zeller says many doubt the U.S. government's claim that it did not negotiate El Mayo's handover.
“A lot of people don't believe that. And a lot of people think that there was obviously a lot of negotiating behind doors”
- Joe Rogan
Rogan, citing Ed Calderón, says essentially every candidate for Mexican office works for a cartel.
“essentially every single mayor candidate every single candidate for any kind of government seat works for the cartel”
- Mariana van Zeller
Van Zeller describes a whistleblower account that DEA agents in New Mexico let fentanyl circulate to build bigger cases.
“the DEA in New Mexico was allowing millions of pills of fentanyl to go out on the streets in order to build bigger cases”
Linked moment · 1:53:14Skip to 1:53:14 using a listen link in the info box.
Joe RoganRogan recalls that cartel violence was not a concern when visiting Mexico in the 1990s, calling it a recent phenomenon.
“when I first moved to California in the 90s, there was no concern about going to Mexico”
- Mariana van Zeller
Van Zeller argues Portugal succeeded where Oregon failed partly because it built treatment infrastructure before decriminalizing.
“two years before they decriminalized drugs, they started creating rehab facilities and treatment centers for people with addiction”
- Mariana van Zeller
Van Zeller criticizes the Trump administration for cutting funding for treatment, test strips and naloxone while expanding enforcement.
“they are now taking money away from rehab facilities, from Medicare, from from fentanyl test strips, which I think are incredibly important”
- Mariana van Zeller
Van Zeller says most fentanyl enters the U.S. through official ports of entry rather than between them.
“I think 95 percent of fentanyl comes across the official board ports of entry, right?”
- Mariana van Zeller
Van Zeller warns of nitazenes, a new synthetic opioid she says is far stronger than fentanyl.
“there's a new drug out there right now called nitazines that is 50 times more powerful than fentanyl”
- Mariana van Zeller
Van Zeller states that about a million Americans have died in the opioid epidemic over roughly two decades.
“A million people have died from the opiate epidemic in the last 20 something years”
- Joe Rogan
Rogan argues ibogaine is among the most effective addiction treatments.
“Ibogaine is one of the most effective treatments for people that have addictions”
- Joe Rogan
Rogan argues ibogaine's Schedule I status is unjustified given its demonstrated medical use.
“And it's Schedule 1, which is crazy because Schedule 1 has no legitimate medical use”
- Mariana van Zeller
Van Zeller recommends diverting even a small share of enforcement spending to demand-side treatment.
“even if it's just like 10% of the money that you spend on enforcement, let's put that on actually treating the demand side of it”
People
In the conversation
- Joe RoganAmerican comedian and host of The Joe Rogan Experience
- Mariana van ZellerPortuguese-American Peabody and Emmy Award-winning investigative journalist, host of Trafficked with Mariana van Zeller
Discussed
- Mark ZuckerbergCo-founder of Facebook
- Jeff HorwitzReuters journalist who reported on Meta's scam ad revenue
- Brandon GuffeySouth Carolina legislator whose son died by suicide after sextortion
- Valerie FousheeU.S. Representative from North Carolina, co-sponsor of the Safe Platforms Act
- Barry CrimminsLate Boston comedian who exposed child exploitation on AOL
- Hillary ClintonFormer U.S. secretary of state, subject of a viral photo discussed by the hosts
- Ismael Zambada GarcíaSinaloa Cartel co-founder known as El Mayo
- Joaquín Guzmán LópezSon of El Chapo who delivered El Mayo to U.S. authorities
- Ovidio GuzmánSon of El Chapo whose arrest triggered the Culiacanazo
- Claudia SheinbaumPresident of Mexico
- Ed CalderonFormer Mexican government investigator and security specialist cited by Rogan on cartel power
- Rick PerryFormer Texas governor involved in the Texas ibogaine initiative
- Bryan HubbardIbogaine advocate working with Rick Perry
- Donald TrumpPresident of the United States whose conduct of the Iran war is the episode's main subject
- Jon Bon JoviAmerican singer impersonated in a romance scam
- Duncan TrussellAmerican stand-up comedian, voice actor and host of The Duncan Trussell Family Hour
- Larry HagmanDallas actor who said LSD removed his fear of death
- Michael DouglasActor who wrote about smuggling marijuana to pay for college
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From the publisher
Mariana van Zeller is a Peabody and Emmy Award-winning journalist whose credits include "Trafficked with Mariana van Zeller," "The OxyContin Express," and "Inside Secret America." She is also the host of "The Hidden Third" podcast. Her latest documentary special, "Super Scam Me," premieres October 17 on National Geographic and will be available to stream on Disney+ and Hulu.https://www.natgeotv.com/za/programs/natgeo/super-scam-mehttps://www.youtube.com/channel/UCoCiI8nJacn8gDiHxr6aQGAhttps://www.patreon.com/cw/TheHiddenThirdhttps://www.imdb.com/name/nm2447662/https://marianavanzeller.me Perplexity: Download the app or ask Perplexity anything at https://pplx.ai/rogan. Don’t miss out on all the action this week at DraftKings! Download the DraftKings app today! Sign-up using https://dkng.co/rogan or through my promo code ROGAN. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices
Summary, chapters and key points were generated from the episode transcript on October 20, 2026. Quotes are checked word for word against the transcript.