#2580 - Kenneth Lacovara

Episode of The Joe Rogan Experience · November 12, 2026 · 2 h 27 min

Joe Rogan talks with paleontologist Kenneth Lacovara about dinosaur denialism, fossilization, Dreadnoughtus, the asteroid extinction, deep time, de-extinction and fieldwork adventures.

Summary

Joe Rogan invited paleontologist Kenneth Lacovara after growing frustrated with online claims that dinosaurs never existed. Lacovara welcomed skepticism but argued that such a hoax would require an impossible worldwide conspiracy across centuries, and invited doubters to dig fossils themselves, noting that paleontology makes testable predictions about which rocks yield which fossils. He explained deep time using a one-year calendar of Earth history, described how rarely organisms fossilize, discussed debated reports of preserved dinosaur blood, and said no dinosaur DNA exists.

Lacovara recounted the history of the field: early scrappy British finds named by Richard Owen in 1842, the Crystal Palace sculptures, the 1858 discovery of Hadrosaurus in New Jersey, Nicolas Steno's insights about shark teeth, James Hutton's work at Siccar Point, and how Charles Lyell's writings gave Charles Darwin the deep-time framework for natural selection. He discussed feathered theropods, Jurassic Park's inaccuracies, his own discovery Dreadnoughtus and how its 65-ton mass was estimated, giant prehistoric crocodiles, the end-Triassic extinction, and the Chicxulub impact, which he argued left non-avian dinosaurs functionally extinct the same day.

The conversation also covered plate tectonics, geomagnetic reversals, underground cities such as Derinkuyu, cryptids and the Bondo mystery ape, Neanderthals, Colossal Biosciences' de-extinction work (which Lacovara advises and defended for recently extinct species), zoos and conservation, Prehistoric Planet's speculative neck bladders on Dreadnoughtus, bird-style breathing, backyard chickens, and the Explorers Club. Lacovara explained the Cope–Marsh Bone Wars, museum use of replicas, where he would search for new dinosaurs (Patagonia, North Africa, Antarctica), and recalled dangerous field moments before presenting Rogan with fossils from the Edelman Fossil Park's extinction layer.

Chapters

0:06
Dinosaur denialism
Rogan explains his frustration with people who deny dinosaurs existed and Lacovara argues science is testable rather than a belief system.
4:26
Deep time and fossilization
Lacovara uses a calendar analogy for Earth history and explains why fossilization is rare, sub-fossils, preserved soft tissue and the absence of dinosaur DNA.
14:40
Early history of dinosaur discovery
Folk paleontology, Richard Owen's naming of dinosaurs, the Crystal Palace sculptures and the New Jersey Hadrosaurus.
27:58
Feathers, Jurassic Park and Dreadnoughtus
Discussion of feathered theropods, Velociraptor size, Jurassic Park's science and how Dreadnoughtus's mass was calculated.
37:04
Crocodiles, extinctions and the asteroid
Giant prehistoric crocodiles, the end-Triassic extinction and the effects of the Chicxulub impact on dinosaurs.
51:32
Dragons, Steno, Hutton and Darwin
Folklore explanations for fossils, Herodotus's winged serpents, Steno's laws, Hutton's deep time and its influence on Darwin.
1:08:44
Scientific change, plate tectonics and pole shifts
Falsification in science, the late acceptance of plate tectonics, and what is known about geomagnetic reversals.
1:22:19
Underground cities and cryptids
Rogan describes Derinkuyu and Chinese caverns; they discuss Mokele-mbembe, Loch Ness, Bigfoot and the Bondo ape.
1:33:58
Human relatives, de-extinction and zoos
Homo floresiensis, Neanderthals, Colossal Biosciences' de-extinction projects, ethics of revival, and zoo conservation.
1:45:54
Prehistoric Planet, dinosaur breathing and chickens
Lacovara critiques Dreadnoughtus's neck bladders in Prehistoric Planet, explains bird-style lungs, and both discuss their chickens.
1:55:29
The Explorers Club
Lacovara describes the Explorers Club, its insect dinner, meeting Apollo astronauts and its support for explorers.
1:59:56
Hoaxes, Bone Wars and museum replicas
Lacovara explains the Cope–Marsh rivalry, modern fossil fakes, and why museums mount replicas.
2:08:48
Where to dig and field stories
Lacovara outlines where he would search for new dinosaurs, recounts dangerous expeditions, and presents fossils from the extinction layer.

Key points

What was said, by whom, with the exact words. Timestamps jump to the moment.

Linked moment · 0:06Skip to 0:06 using a listen link in the info box.
Kenneth Lacovara
Lacovara argues that a dinosaur hoax would require an implausibly large conspiracy across nations and eras.
“this would require this massive conspiracy from different continents, different countries, people that have never met each other, people that didn't live at the same time”
Listen from 1:33 · Dinosaur denialism
Kenneth Lacovara
Lacovara says non-avian dinosaur fossils are found only in rocks of a specific age range.
“you have to find rocks that are between about 237 million years old and 66 million years old to find non-avian dinosaurs”
Listen from 2:53 · Fossilization
Kenneth Lacovara
Lacovara argues that because fossils form mainly in lowlands, entire dinosaur habitats such as mountains are likely unknown to science.
“So there's probably whole environments that were occupied by dinosaur species that we don't know about that we'll probably never know about”
Listen from 7:42 · Fossilization
Kenneth Lacovara
Lacovara states that no non-avian dinosaur DNA has been recovered, making Jurassic Park-style cloning impossible.
“We don't have any non-avian dinosaur DNA. We don't have any DNA that's that old”
Listen from 10:06 · Jurassic Park
Kenneth Lacovara
Lacovara calls England the birthplace and southern New Jersey the cradle of dinosaur paleontology.
“England is the birthplace of dinosaur paleontology, but southern New Jersey is the cradle of dinosaur paleontology”
Listen from 19:41 · Hadrosaurus
Kenneth Lacovara
Lacovara says the first Jurassic Park film reflected state-of-the-art science apart from its oversized Velociraptor, but later films froze 1993-era models.
“that first Jurassic Park movie like that was state of the art science, you know, except for that”
Listen from 32:37 · Jurassic Park
Kenneth Lacovara
Lacovara describes Dreadnoughtus as the most massive dinosaur whose weight can be calculated with confidence, at about 65 tons.
“it's the most massive dinosaur for which we can confidently calculate a weight”
Listen from 34:53 · Dreadnoughtus
Kenneth Lacovara
Lacovara says falling impact debris heated the surface to extreme temperatures within an hour of the asteroid strike.
“temperatures got up somewhere between toaster oven and pizza oven”
Listen from 48:26 · Cretaceous–Paleogene extinction event
Kenneth Lacovara
Lacovara argues non-avian dinosaurs, unable to burrow, were functionally extinct on the day of the impact.
“I think they're functionally extinct the day of the impact, which is shocking”
Listen from 51:08 · Cretaceous–Paleogene extinction event
Kenneth Lacovara
Lacovara says reading Lyell's account of deep time gave Darwin the framework to conceive of natural selection.
“that gives him the intellectual space to imagine evolution through natural selection”
Listen from 1:02:26 · Uniformitarianism
Kenneth Lacovara
Lacovara speculates that a geomagnetic reversal could raise rates of cancer and mutation.
“we would probably have an increased rate of cancer. We would maybe also have an increased rate of mutation”
Listen from 1:19:22 · Geomagnetic reversal
Kenneth Lacovara
Lacovara argues cryptids would require breeding populations that would be hard to miss in places like Loch Ness.
“there has to be a breeding population of them to exist, right? Like, there can't be one Loch Ness monster or one Bigfoot”
Listen from 1:28:34 · Cryptozoology
Joe Rogan
Rogan observes that people accept reviving mammoths and dire wolves but would object to reviving Neanderthals.
“But if they brought back a Neanderthal, everybody would be like, hey”
Listen from 1:37:54 · De-extinction
Kenneth Lacovara
Lacovara supports reviving species that went extinct during the human era, arguing their ecosystems still exist.
“During the time of humans, that's still basically this world, and they have a place in this world”
Listen from 1:41:26 · De-extinction
Joe Rogan
Rogan says he dislikes primates kept in small zoo cages, recalling a distressed monkey at the Denver Zoo.
“I do not like primates at the zoo. It drives me crazy”
Listen from 1:42:19
Kenneth Lacovara
Lacovara credits the San Diego Zoo with the California condor's recovery from 22 birds.
“I think the San Diego Zoo is largely responsible for the emerging recovery of the California condor”
Listen from 1:44:21
Kenneth Lacovara
Lacovara argues Prehistoric Planet's depiction of Dreadnoughtus head-slapping like giraffes is implausible given their anatomy.
“which I think they would absolutely not do. Their necks are really long and lightly built, filled a lot with air, and their heads are tiny”
Listen from 1:46:12 · Prehistoric Planet
Kenneth Lacovara
Lacovara says Cope and Marsh were bitter rivals but did not fabricate fossils.
“But they were dealing with real fossils. They just hated each other”
Listen from 2:01:56 · Bone Wars
Kenneth Lacovara
Lacovara explains that museums now often display replicas while keeping original bones in collections for study.
“best practice now, you know, really is to keep the stuff in the collections and to mount the recreations”
Listen from 2:06:22 · Dinosaur denialism
Kenneth Lacovara
Lacovara says Antarctica, unglaciated in the dinosaur era, likely holds vast numbers of undiscovered species.
“It's got to be thousands and thousands of dinosaurs and new species under that ice cap, and we have no idea what's down there”
Listen from 2:12:16

People

In the conversation

Joe RoganAmerican comedian and host of The Joe Rogan Experience
Kenneth LacovaraAmerican paleontologist, founding dean of Rowan University's School of Earth & Environment and director of the Jean & Ric Edelman Fossil Park, author of "Why Dinosaurs Matter"

Discussed

Mary SchweitzerAmerican paleontologist, a founder of molecular paleontology
Beth ShapiroAmerican evolutionary biologist and Chief Science Officer at Colossal Biosciences, formerly a professor at UC Santa Cruz and Howard Hughes Medical Institute investigator
Richard Owen19th-century British anatomist who coined the word dinosaur
Benjamin Waterhouse HawkinsVictorian sculptor of the Crystal Palace dinosaurs
Nicolas Steno17th-century Danish scientist called a father of geology
James HuttonScottish Enlightenment geologist, author of Theory of the Earth
Charles LyellBritish geologist, author of Principles of Geology
Charles DarwinEnglish naturalist who developed the theory of evolution
Harry HessAmerican geologist and naval officer who proposed seafloor spreading
Alfred WegenerGerman scientist who proposed continental drift
Othniel Charles MarshYale paleontologist in the 19th-century Bone Wars
Edward Drinker CopePhiladelphia paleontologist and Marsh's Bone Wars rival
Darren NaishBritish paleontologist who advised Prehistoric Planet
Ben LammColossal Biosciences CEO and Warhound co-creator
Gregory ForthCanadian cultural anthropologist, Fellow of the Royal Society of Canada, and author of "Between Ape and Human"
HerodotusAncient Greek historian who described the Egyptian labyrinth
Edmund HillaryNew Zealand mountaineer who, with Tenzing Norgay, made the first confirmed ascent of Everest in 1953

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From the publisher

Kenneth Lacovara, PhD, is a paleontologist, founding dean of the School of Earth & Environment at Rowan University, and director of the Jean & Ric Edelman Fossil Park. He is the author of "Why Dinosaurs Matter."www.simonandschuster.com/authors/Kenneth-Lacovara/2115154173https://www.youtube.com/@thefossilpark www.kennethlacovara.com Perplexity: Download the app or ask Perplexity anything at https://pplx.ai/rogan. Use code ROGAN at https://BlueChew.com to get 10% OFF + Free Overnight Shipping on your first order. Switch today at https://www.Visible.com for just $19/mo for one year on the Visible plan with promo code HOLIDAYHACK. Or get the premium Visible+ Pro plan and save $10 on your first month with code ROGAN. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Summary, chapters and key points were generated from the episode transcript on November 13, 2026. Quotes are checked word for word against the transcript.

Categories: Life Sciences·Earth Sciences·History