Michael Lewis
American nonfiction author of Moneyball, The Big Short, The Fifth Risk and Blockers: Rebels in the Deep State
Michael Lewis (American nonfiction author of Moneyball, The Big Short, The Fifth Risk and Blockers: Rebels in the Deep State) has appeared as a guest on 1 episode in TMT. Topics they speak about most include United States federal civil service, Department of Government Efficiency, National Institute of Standards and Technology.
In their words
Positions and remarks grouped by topic, each with the exact quote and where it was said.
United States federal civil service
Lewis says he is waiting for a political candidate who will campaign on rethinking how government works.
“I keep waiting for the candidate to arise who says we're going to rethink how we govern ourselves because a lot of it makes no sense”
Pod Save America: Deep State Rebels v. Trump (with Michael Lewis) (Oct 4, 2026) · Listen from 59:24
Lewis argues the country has stopped asking what qualifications people need to run federal agencies.
“we stopped asking what qualifications should a person have to run one of these federal agencies?”
Pod Save America: Deep State Rebels v. Trump (with Michael Lewis) (Oct 4, 2026) · Listen from 22:39
Lewis argues that Trump's first administration was defined by indifference to running the government.
“its signature was indifference and ignorance. Like he didn't care at all about running the government”
Pod Save America: Deep State Rebels v. Trump (with Michael Lewis) (Oct 4, 2026) · Listen from 3:51
Other remarks
Lewis attributes a cyclospora lettuce contamination to reductions in FDA inspectors.
“In that case, I think you can trace it back to the reduction in the number of inspectors, of the FDA inspectors”
Pod Save America: Deep State Rebels v. Trump (with Michael Lewis) (Oct 4, 2026) · Listen from 43:31
Lewis contends that Americans still trust the government in their behavior despite saying otherwise.
“People still basically trust the government, even if they say they don't”
Pod Save America: Deep State Rebels v. Trump (with Michael Lewis) (Oct 4, 2026) · Listen from 41:22
Lewis argues Trump instinctively seeks out and destroys trust because he operates better in low-trust environments.
“he's going to find where there's trust and try to destroy it and is it and he might not think quite this way”
Pod Save America: Deep State Rebels v. Trump (with Michael Lewis) (Oct 4, 2026) · Listen from 40:27
Department of Government Efficiency
Lewis suggests DOGE's real effect was to set up conditions for a presidential power grab rather than cut waste.
“What it really is were the preconditions for a big power grab”
Pod Save America: Deep State Rebels v. Trump (with Michael Lewis) (Oct 4, 2026) · Listen from 31:32
Lewis argues Musk's $2 trillion target was impossible because interest, defense and entitlements make up about 75% of the budget.
“So it's mathematically impossible to cut $2 trillion out of this last little slice he's attacking”
Pod Save America: Deep State Rebels v. Trump (with Michael Lewis) (Oct 4, 2026) · Listen from 32:02
National Institute of Standards and Technology
Lewis argues the market performs poorly on public safety and government fills that role well.
“The market, especially with public safety stuff, the market is terrible. And the government does all this great stuff”
Pod Save America: Deep State Rebels v. Trump (with Michael Lewis) (Oct 4, 2026) · Listen from 23:46
Lewis says Maranghides warned that NIST's fire-science knowledge resides in only one person.
“And he says, like, that knowledge that we created, it's one person deep”
Pod Save America: Deep State Rebels v. Trump (with Michael Lewis) (Oct 4, 2026) · Listen from 22:35
United States Institute of Peace
Lewis argues that because no violence occurred, the importance of who controlled armed security was overlooked.
“I think because no shots were fired, I think we ignore the importance of who has the guns”
Pod Save America: Deep State Rebels v. Trump (with Michael Lewis) (Oct 4, 2026) · Listen from 8:03
Lewis says the administration's seizure of the Institute of Peace was blatantly illegal but is moving slowly through the courts.
“So it was, I mean, it's blatantly illegal, but it's working its way through the courts slowly”
Pod Save America: Deep State Rebels v. Trump (with Michael Lewis) (Oct 4, 2026) · Listen from 5:06
Blockers: Rebels in the Deep State
Lewis argues Trump's opponents lack a narrative and that his book aims to supply a true, constructive story about government.
“I've had this feeling that we're in this narrative war, that he has a story and the other side doesn't have a story”
Pod Save America: Deep State Rebels v. Trump (with Michael Lewis) (Oct 4, 2026) · Listen from 1:02:00
Office of Personnel Management
Lewis says DOGE's mass for-cause firing of probationary workers was illegal.
“Now, it's actually against the law what they did because you're supposed to only fire these people for cause”
Pod Save America: Deep State Rebels v. Trump (with Michael Lewis) (Oct 4, 2026) · Listen from 47:25
Internal Revenue Service
Lewis says IRS tax data on undocumented workers was given to ICE and used to arrest people at their homes, undermining trust and tax compliance.
“We now know that they actually took this data and went and used it to grab people in their homes”
Pod Save America: Deep State Rebels v. Trump (with Michael Lewis) (Oct 4, 2026) · Listen from 39:32
Government fraud and waste
Lewis acknowledges waste in the civil service but says internal fraud is unlikely because employees are closely monitored.
“There's not a lot of fraud because they get watched so close”
Pod Save America: Deep State Rebels v. Trump (with Michael Lewis) (Oct 4, 2026) · Listen from 29:23
Wildland–urban interface fires
Lewis relays Maranghides's warning that the U.S. East Coast is a tinderbox vulnerable after brief droughts.
“He said that all it takes is six weeks of dry and of no rain, and the east coast is waiting to go up”
Pod Save America: Deep State Rebels v. Trump (with Michael Lewis) (Oct 4, 2026) · Listen from 20:08
United States Department of Commerce
Lewis says Lutnick's requirement to personally approve expenses over $10,000 paralyzed Commerce operations because he was rarely there.
“It's just like anything over $10,000 I have to sign, which just shuts things down because he's not there to sign them”
Pod Save America: Deep State Rebels v. Trump (with Michael Lewis) (Oct 4, 2026) · Listen from 23:39
Deep state conspiracy theory
Lewis contends the claim that a deep state undermined Trump's first term was baseless, since Trump arrived without policy plans.
“And so the idea that like there's this deep state that undermined him was insane”
Pod Save America: Deep State Rebels v. Trump (with Michael Lewis) (Oct 4, 2026) · Listen from 11:39
Appearances
Deep State Rebels v. Trump (with Michael Lewis)Pod Save America · Oct 4, 2026 · 1 h 4 min
Jon Lovett interviews author Michael Lewis about his book Blockers, on federal employees who resisted DOGE and the Trump administration's reshaping of government.
Often appears with
- Jon Lovett · 1 shared episode