#442 - "It Wasn't Russia" 27-Year CIA Agent Drops DNC Hack Bombshell | Ray McGovern

Episode of Danny Jones Podcast · October 24, 2026 · 3 h 1 min

Former CIA analyst Ray McGovern tells Danny Jones about NATO expansion and Ukraine, the DNC leak and Seth Rich, JFK, Iran, and the USS Liberty.

Summary

Danny Jones interviewed Ray McGovern, a former CIA analyst who joined the agency in 1963 and briefed senior officials during the Reagan administration. McGovern argued that the Russian invasion of Ukraine grew out of NATO's eastward expansion despite what he described as a 1990 promise from James Baker to Mikhail Gorbachev. He cited Bill Burns's 2008 cable, Victoria Nuland's role in the 2014 Maidan events, a claimed December 2021 Biden pledge not to place strike missiles in Ukraine, and the spring 2022 Istanbul draft agreement that he said Boris Johnson scuttled. He contended that NATO is effectively finished without US backing and that Russia poses no real threat to Europe.

McGovern then called Russiagate fabricated. He argued that the DNC email leak was an inside job rather than a Russian hack, citing analysis by former NSA technical directors in Veteran Intelligence Professionals for Sanity and CrowdStrike chief Shawn Henry's 2017 testimony that there was no concrete evidence of exfiltration. He suggested Seth Rich as the likely source and described FBI stonewalling over Rich's computers and his own subpoena from Rich's brother's lawyers. Jones and McGovern also discussed the JFK assassination; McGovern named Allen Dulles as the likely orchestrator, recommended James Douglass's book, and recounted Fred Janney's alleged role in a cover-up.

In the later part of the conversation, McGovern said Iran poses no threat to the United States and described the US–Iran war as fought on Israel's behalf. He proposed a deal built on the 2007 National Intelligence Estimate's finding that Iran had halted weapons work, contrasted it with what he called corrupted Iraq War intelligence, and voiced fear that Benjamin Netanyahu might use nuclear weapons. Jones argued that financial interests drive US wars. The episode closed with McGovern's account of the 1967 USS Liberty attack, his friendship with survivor Bryce Lockwood, and his view that Israel learned it could "get away with murder."

Chapters

  1. 1:14

    Joining the CIA under Kennedy

    McGovern described studying Russian, being inspired by JFK, and joining the CIA in April 1963.

  2. 4:09

    NATO expansion and the road to war in Ukraine

    McGovern traced the Ukraine war to NATO enlargement, the 1990 Baker promise, Bill Burns's 2008 cable and the 2014 Maidan events.

  3. 20:59

    Putin's missile warning, Biden's pledge and China

    McGovern recounted Putin's December 2021 warning, a claimed Biden pledge on strike missiles, and his theory of Xi Jinping's tacit blessing for the invasion.

  4. 29:36

    Istanbul talks and the balance of power

    McGovern described the initialed 2022 Istanbul agreement, Boris Johnson's intervention, China's backing of Russia, and his view that NATO is no more.

  5. 43:32

    Russiagate and the DNC email leak

    McGovern argued the Russian hack narrative was a diversion and cited VIPS analysis and Shawn Henry's testimony read aloud by Jones.

  6. 1:01:23

    Seth Rich, the CJR and a subpoena

    McGovern discussed Seth Rich's killing, FBI handling of his computers, a Columbia Journalism Review omission, and being subpoenaed by Rich's brother's lawyers.

  7. 1:13:41

    Comey, Putin and the Moscow trip with Oliver Stone

    McGovern criticized Trump's prosecutions as inept, defended Putin as restrained, and described visiting Moscow with Oliver Stone in 2025.

  8. 1:30:17

    JFK assassination and CIA cover-up

    Jones and McGovern discussed JFK's peace speech, Allen Dulles, John Newman's research, and Fred Janney's alleged cover-up role.

  9. 1:41:36

    Deep state and Europe's turmoil

    McGovern cited Douglas Macgregor and Joe Kent on bureaucratic resistance to Trump and predicted European leaders would soon fall.

  10. 1:51:05

    Iran war, Iraq WMD and the 2007 NIE

    McGovern argued the Iran war served Israel, proposed a peace deal based on the 2007 Iran estimate, and called Iraq War intelligence fabricated.

  11. 2:07:51

    Netanyahu, money and Israel's influence on intelligence

    The two discussed Netanyahu's election, nuclear fears, defense-industry profits, and James Angleton's control over CIA reporting on Israel.

  12. 2:30:06

    The USS Liberty attack

    McGovern recounted the 1967 Israeli attack on the USS Liberty, the recalled rescue planes, survivor Bryce Lockwood, and theories of Israel's motive.

Key points

What was said, by whom, with the exact words. Timestamps jump to the moment.

  • Ray McGovern

    McGovern recounts that a Gorbachev aide told him the 1990 no-expansion promise was unwritten because the Soviets trusted the US, trust that evaporated when Clinton enlarged NATO.

    “but the real reason Mr. McGovern was we trusted you. So trust evaporated when Clinton allowed all these other East European countries to get into NATO”

    Listen from 10:26 · Enlargement of NATO

  • Ray McGovern

    McGovern claims that in a December 2021 call Biden pledged not to place offensive strike missiles in Ukraine, a commitment later disowned by his administration.

    “And the readout says the President of the United States pledged not to put offensive strike missiles in Ukraine”

    Listen from 23:32 · Russian invasion of Ukraine

  • Ray McGovern

    McGovern speculates that Putin sought Xi Jinping's blessing in February 2022 and might have been more reluctant to invade without it.

    “if Putin didn't get the blessing from this great big brother, I mean, great big brother, he may have been more reluctant to do this”

    Listen from 30:04 · Russian invasion of Ukraine

  • Ray McGovern

    McGovern says Boris Johnson told Ukraine to reject the initialed Istanbul agreement because the goal was weakening Russia.

    “This is not about your problems. It's about weakening Russia. We're going to support you for as long as it takes”

    Listen from 33:58 · 2022 Russia–Ukraine peace negotiations

  • Ray McGovern

    McGovern argues NATO is effectively finished because the US will no longer back it over Ukraine.

    “Now, NATO is no more. And for those who think that the Europeans can kind of get Trump or any other president to come back in for Ukraine, misled”

    Listen from 38:17 · Enlargement of NATO

  • Ray McGovern

    McGovern contends Democrats deliberately blamed Russia for the DNC leak to divert attention from emails showing the primary was tilted against Bernie Sanders.

    “there was a considered decision there at the Democratic National Convention to blame the Russians”

    Listen from 44:56 · 2016 Democratic National Committee email leak

  • Ray McGovern

    McGovern says former NSA technical directors in VIPS had shown by December 2016 that the DNC breach was an inside job, not a Russian hack.

    “we, that is our former technical directors of NSA, had already proven that it had to be an inside job. It wasn't a Russian hack”

    Listen from 52:56 · Veteran Intelligence Professionals for Sanity

  • Ray McGovern

    McGovern suggests that the absence of exfiltration evidence points to Seth Rich as the prime candidate for the DNC leak.

    “So it supports the hypothesis that whoever it was, and there is one prime candidate, His name is Rich, Seth Rich”

    Listen from 1:02:05 · Murder of Seth Rich

  • Ray McGovern

    McGovern predicts that no consequences will befall Comey, Brennan, Clapper or complicit DOJ officials because of deep-state strength.

    “I don't think anything is going to happen to either Comey or Brennan or Clapper or any of the people in DOJ”

    Listen from 1:16:10

  • Ray McGovern

    McGovern asserts Putin will win in Ukraine and that Trump will allow it for lack of alternatives.

    “He's going to win in Ukraine. That much is clear. And Trump's going to let him because he doesn't have any other choice”

    Listen from 1:17:51 · Russian invasion of Ukraine

  • Ray McGovern

    McGovern believes Allen Dulles was the main orchestrator of the Kennedy assassination.

    “Alan Dulles, the head of the CIA who was canned by Kennedy for the Bay of Pigs invasion, stupid thing, I think he was pretty much the main orchestrator”

    Listen from 1:31:58 · Assassination of John F. Kennedy

  • Danny Jones

    Jones says he does not believe the CIA killed Kennedy but thinks it covered up the assassination.

    “I don't believe the CIA killed him, but like, it's pretty, I think it's pretty fair to say that they covered it up”

    Listen from 1:39:00 · Assassination of John F. Kennedy

  • Ray McGovernPrediction · due Oct 2027

    McGovern predicts that German Chancellor Merz will be out within months and Macron within less than a year.

    “I wouldn't give Maltz in Germany many more months and Macron not even got a year left, probably less”

    Listen from 1:49:17

  • Ray McGovern

    McGovern argues Iran poses no threat to the United States and that the war is an Israeli operation.

    “Well, I guess one starts with the fact that Iran is no threat to the United States”

    Listen from 1:51:13 · United States war with Iran

  • Ray McGovern

    McGovern proposes that Trump end the Iran war by declaring victory on the basis that Iran stopped nuclear weapons work in 2003, as the 2007 NIE found.

    “he's got to give. He's got to make some concessions. And I have a plan for him”

    Listen from 1:53:54 · 2007 National Intelligence Estimate on Iran

  • Ray McGovern

    McGovern maintains that intelligence used to justify the Iraq invasion was deliberately corrupted rather than mistaken.

    “the intelligence was corrupted to justify, in quotes, the attack on Iran, on Iraq. Right. In other words, it wasn't a mistake, okay?”

    Listen from 1:57:01 · Iraq War

  • Ray McGovern

    McGovern says his main concern is that Netanyahu might resort to nuclear weapons.

    “So, yeah, my main concern is that Netanyahu will go nuclear”

    Listen from 2:08:24 · United States war with Iran

  • Danny Jones

    Jones argues that US wars are driven by financial interests seeking to extract as much money as possible.

    “They're trying to just make as much money as they possibly can in the shortest amount of time before shit hits the fan”

    Listen from 2:14:26

  • Ray McGovern

    McGovern believes automatic US support for Israel is eroding, especially among younger people, which could shape the midterms.

    “I think that one of the main factors is that the automatic favoring of Israel is no longer the case, especially among younger people”

    Listen from 2:16:45 · Israel lobby in the United States

  • Ray McGovern

    McGovern suggests the Saudi monarchy is near collapse amid Houthi attacks.

    “it looks like the House of Saud is finally for the history books”

    Listen from 2:29:52

  • Ray McGovern

    McGovern argues that the US cover-up of the USS Liberty attack taught Israel it could act against the US without consequence.

    “In other words, the Israelis learned that they could get away with murder”

    Listen from 2:37:12 · USS Liberty incident

  • Linked moment · 2:50:51Skip to 2:50:51 using a listen link in the info box.

    Ray McGovern

    McGovern leans toward the theory that Israel attacked the Liberty to hide its imminent move on the Golan Heights.

    “I lean toward the one about the Golan Heights. They did go up the next day”

    Listen from 2:50:51 · USS Liberty incident

People

In the conversation

  • Danny JonesAmerican podcaster and host of the Danny Jones Podcast
  • Ray McGovernFormer CIA analyst of 27 years and co-founder of Veteran Intelligence Professionals for Sanity

Discussed

Topics

More from Danny Jones Podcast

From the publisher

Watch every episode ad-free & uncensored on Patreon: https://patreon.com/dannyjones Ray McGovern is the former CIA analyst who personally briefed Reagan’s inner circle every morning, then spent the next three decades accusing the agency of lying the United States into wars. https://substack.com/@raymcgovern SPONSORS https://mod.com - Use code DANNY for 10% off. http://kalshi.com/r/dannyjones - Download the Kalshi app and use code DANNYJONES to get $25 when you trade $25. https://stio.com/danny - Get 20% off your order. https://whiterabbitenergy.com/?ref=DJP - Use code DJP for 20% off. EPISODE LINKS https://substack.com/@raymcgovern https://x.com/raymcgovern https://raymcgovern.com *NEW* DJP MERCH https://dannyjonespodcast.com Get paid to make clips from the show: https://discord.com/invite/dannyjones FOLLOW DANNY JONES https://www.instagram.com/dannyjones https://twitter.com/jonesdanny OUTLINE 00:00 - Joining the CIA in 1963 04:21 - Ukraine peace talks & the Minsk agreements 06:43 - NATO expansion after the Berlin Wall 11:29 - Bill Burns' warning about Ukraine joining NATO 13:00 - Victoria Nuland's $5 billion & the Maidan uprising 19:51 - Putin's missile warning & Biden's pledge 26:54 - China's backing for Russia before the invasion 29:32 - The Istanbul peace talks & Boris Johnson 35:03 - The balance of power: Russia, China & the US 39:06 - Ray's view of NATO without US support 42:51 - Russiagate & the DNC email leak 49:53 - Bill Binney & the challenge to the DNC hack account 56:49 - Shawn Henry's testimony on DNC data exfiltration 01:00:58 - Seth Rich's death & Ray's leak theory 01:07:37 - The Columbia Journalism Review's Russiagate investigation 01:10:23 - Ray's subpoena from Seth Rich's brother 01:13:03 - Comey, Brennan & Trump's prosecutions 01:15:30 - Oliver Stone's Putin interview & nuclear restraint 01:18:30 - Ray's Moscow trip with Oliver Stone 01:25:45 - Germany, Russophobia & Russia's threat perceptions 01:29:06 - JFK's peace speech & assassination theori…

Summary, chapters and key points were generated from the episode transcript on November 1, 2026. Quotes are checked word for word against the transcript.

Categories: Politics·History·Government