Bringing Extinct Species Back to Life | Dr. Beth Shapiro

Episode of Huberman Lab · October 5, 2026 · 2 h 16 min

Andrew Huberman talks with evolutionary biologist Beth Shapiro about species concepts, Neanderthal DNA, Colossal Biosciences' de-extinction projects, genetic rescue, and the ethics of human genetic selection.

Summary

Andrew Huberman interviewed Beth Shapiro, Chief Science Officer at Colossal Biosciences, about ancient DNA, de-extinction and synthetic biology for conservation. Shapiro opened by arguing that species are a human concept, describing biological, genetic and geographic species concepts, and explained interbreeding between Homo sapiens and Neanderthals, the hybridization of brown and polar bears, and how Neanderthal-derived variants have affected traits such as immunity and COVID-19 susceptibility.

Shapiro described how Colossal selects species for de-extinction based on technical, ethical, ecological and social criteria, explaining why dinosaurs cannot be revived and why the woolly mammoth, dodo and thylacine were chosen. She said Colossal's dire wolves were made by engineering 20 edits informed by fossil genomes into gray wolf cells, and defended calling them dire wolves against what she called definitional gatekeeping. She detailed animal welfare choices such as using known-safe coat color variants, and described the three living animals, Romulus, Remus and Khaleesi.

The conversation turned to conservation applications: a cane toad–resistant northern quoll edit, cloned red wolves, the black-footed ferret genetic rescue program and possible plague resistance, gene drives for invasive cheatgrass and mosquitoes, Florida panther genetic rescue, and artificial wombs. Shapiro argued that refusing to intervene is itself a decision that accepts lost biodiversity, and described local advisory panels such as the Ngāi Tahu-led moa project.

Huberman raised human embryo screening, He Jiankui's gene-edited babies and the CRISPR treatment of baby KJ; Shapiro discussed ancient selection for height in northern Europe and argued that humans have always shaped other species. She closed by recounting her path from broadcast journalism at the University of Georgia to a Rhodes Scholarship and ancient DNA research at Oxford.

Chapters

1:59
What is a species?
Shapiro explains that species is a human concept and discusses Linnaean taxonomy, bison naming and competing species concepts.
9:12
Neanderthals, Denisovans and hybrid bears
Shapiro describes human–Neanderthal interbreeding and the one-directional hybridization of polar and brown bears.
22:45
Neanderthal genes, immunity and traits
They discuss what Neanderthal-derived variants do, including COVID-19 risk, red hair and eye color.
30:14
Choosing species for de-extinction
Shapiro explains why dinosaurs are impossible, how DNA degrades, and the ecological rationale illustrated by Pleistocene Park.
39:21
Birds, the dodo and reproductive biology
Shapiro explains why Colossal added a bird program, discusses the dodo, condor parthenogenesis and sex determination.
48:55
Mammoth genomes and the Jurassic Park myth
Shapiro explains that mammoths will be engineered elephants focused on functional differences rather than replicas.
54:49
Dire wolves
Shapiro describes the 20 edits used to create the dire wolves, safety choices, and the animals' behavior and future.
1:03:23
Ecology, conservation and the thylacine
Shapiro argues for ecosystem resilience, citing Yellowstone wolves, Tasmanian devils and a cane toad–resistant quoll.
1:16:58
Gene drives, mosquitoes and panthers
They discuss modeling ecological impacts, gene drives for mosquitoes and cheatgrass, and Florida panther genetic rescue.
1:25:50
Advisory panels and public engagement
Shapiro describes local advisory panels and the public reaction to the dire wolf announcement.
1:29:13
Human genetic selection
They discuss embryo screening, He Jiankui, ancient selection for height and the baby KJ CRISPR treatment.
1:38:25
Black-footed ferrets and genetic rescue
Shapiro recounts the black-footed ferret's rediscovery, cloning of Elizabeth Ann and plague-resistance research.
1:48:53
Ecological modeling, artificial wombs and red wolves
They discuss AI digital twins, Colossal's care reports, artificial wombs and cloned red wolves.
2:04:31
Shapiro's origin story
Shapiro describes moving from broadcast journalism to ancient DNA at Oxford and the persistent dinosaur question.

Key points

What was said, by whom, with the exact words. Timestamps jump to the moment.

Beth Shapiro
Shapiro argues that species is a human construct for communication, not something biology itself recognizes.
“biology doesn't care what species you are. Species is a human concept”
Listen from 3:48 · Species concept
Beth Shapiro
Shapiro reports that brown bears in North America carry polar bear ancestry from interbreeding about 20,000 years ago, but polar bears show no brown bear ancestry, likely because hybrids cannot hunt seals.
“if you have brown bear ancestry, you don't have perfectly white fur and you cannot successfully hunt seals”
Listen from 18:05 · Grizzly–polar bear hybrid
Beth Shapiro
Shapiro says that pooling Neanderthal DNA fragments across living humans would reconstruct over 90% of the Neanderthal genome, implying most of it was not maladaptive.
“We would put together more than 90%, possibly more than 95% of the Neanderthal genome just from people who are alive today”
Listen from 23:41 · Neanderthal admixture
Beth Shapiro
Shapiro says a Neanderthal-derived variant at roughly 50% frequency in Asian populations was associated with worse COVID-19 outcomes.
“one of the first alleles that was discovered to be associated with negative risk or bad outcomes of COVID was a gene that came from Neanderthals”
Listen from 26:21 · Neanderthal admixture
Beth Shapiro
Shapiro explains that dinosaurs cannot be revived because the oldest recovered DNA, from a mammoth, is around one to two million years old, while dinosaurs died out over 66 million years ago.
“We can't bring a dinosaur back to life because we don't have dinosaur DNA. The oldest DNA that we have ever recovered from a bone is from a mammoth bone”
Listen from 32:39 · De-extinction
Beth Shapiro
Shapiro says the goal is not to replicate an individual mammoth but to engineer an elephant with the traits shared by mammoths that allow it to live in mammoth habitats.
“that is where I'm going to focus my energy in bringing back a mammoth, which will be an elephant that is capable of living in the habitats that a mammoth lived in”
Listen from 52:19 · Woolly mammoth
Linked moment · 57:03Skip to 57:03 using a listen link in the info box.
Beth Shapiro
Shapiro says Colossal's dire wolves were made by engineering 20 fossil-informed edits into a gray wolf genome, and she is content to call the result a dire wolf if it fills the niche.
“If it looks like a dire wolf and it's able to fill the niche of a dire wolf, I'm happy to call it a dire wolf”
Listen from 57:03 · Dire wolf
Beth Shapiro
Shapiro says Colossal avoided the actual dire wolf coat-color variants because related edits in gray wolves and dogs can cause albinism, blindness or deafness, using known-safe variants instead.
“We wouldn't make the trait that way. It just wasn't passing the bar of animal welfare safety”
Listen from 59:18 · Dire wolf
Beth Shapiro
Shapiro states Colossal does not plan to release dire wolves into the wild because they would compete with already struggling gray wolves.
“if we released dire wolves, they would compete with gray wolves. And gray wolves are already having enough trouble trying to find a way to survive”
Listen from 1:06:56 · Dire wolf
Beth Shapiro
Shapiro argues that de-extinction and conservation use the same tools and that excitement about extinct species drives investment in protecting living ones.
“when we excite people with the idea of mammoths and dodos and thylacines, we get more engagement and enthusiasm and investment in developing the technology”
Listen from 1:13:44 · De-extinction
Beth Shapiro
Shapiro reports that Colossal Australia partners engineered a single-letter change into quoll cells that could make northern quolls resistant to cane toad toxin.
“that single letter change to that quoll's genome could allow that quoll not only to avoid becoming extinct, but to eat cane toads”
Listen from 1:15:08 · Northern quoll
Beth Shapiro
Shapiro argues gene drives are a powerful tool that, with safety measures, should be considered, noting they can be limited to a fixed number of generations.
“I actually think that gene drives are an incredibly powerful way that we have at our fingertips where with the appropriate safety measures and care in place”
Listen from 1:21:41 · Gene drive
Beth Shapiro
Shapiro argues that rejecting new conservation technologies as too risky is itself a choice that accepts reduced biodiversity.
“Doing nothing is not not deciding. Doing nothing is saying we accept the fact that we are going to have a future that is less biodiverse than the present”
Listen from 1:23:57 · De-extinction
Beth Shapiro
Shapiro says Colossal's moa project is led by the Ngāi Tahu Research Centre, with Māori people deciding how many moa to make and where to release them.
“Our MOA project is led by the Ngāi Tahu Research Center in South Island of New Zealand”
Listen from 1:27:01 · Colossal Biosciences
Beth Shapiro
Shapiro says ancient DNA shows height-associated genes entered Europe with Yamnaya steppe migrants about 4,700 years ago, evidence of genetic selection in humans.
“a lot of these genes were first introduced into Europe with the steppe people at about 4,700 years ago at the Yamnaya”
Listen from 1:33:59 · Human germline editing and embryo screening
Beth Shapiro
Shapiro says domestic ferrets are not susceptible to plague, so identifying the genetic basis could allow editing black-footed ferrets to be plague resistant.
“Domestic ferrets are not susceptible to plague. And that susceptibility must have some genetic underpinning”
Listen from 1:46:17 · Black-footed ferret
Andrew Huberman Prediction · due Dec 2031
Huberman predicts that gene editing to remove disease risk will become commonplace in fertility within three to five years.
“I predict in probably three to five years, not ten, The technology that we were talking about earlier of muting the HIV receptor, that sort of thing will be very commonplace”
Listen from 1:50:58 · Human germline editing and embryo screening
Beth Shapiro
Shapiro says Colossal is developing artificial wombs, starting with mice, because producing many mammoths via elephant pregnancies is impractical, and the technology could help humans.
“We need a way to be able to birth multiple mammoths simultaneously without using elephants”
Listen from 1:55:31 · Artificial womb
Beth Shapiro
Shapiro says Colossal announced cloned red wolves alongside the dire wolves to add genetic diversity to the endangered red wolf population.
“we've cloned these wolves as a means to introduce new red wolf genetic diversity into the existing red wolf population”
Listen from 2:01:00 · Colossal Biosciences

People

In the conversation

Andrew HubermanAmerican neuroscientist, professor at Stanford School of Medicine and host of the Huberman Lab podcast
Beth ShapiroAmerican evolutionary biologist and Chief Science Officer at Colossal Biosciences, formerly a professor at UC Santa Cruz and Howard Hughes Medical Institute investigator

Discussed

Svante PääboSwedish geneticist and Nobel laureate who sequenced the Neanderthal genome
Ed GreenGenomicist and Shapiro's husband, part of the Neanderthal genome project
Sergey ZimovRussian scientist who runs Pleistocene Park in northeastern Siberia with his son Nikita
He JiankuiChinese scientist who gene-edited human embryos to disrupt the HIV receptor
Alan CooperNew Zealand ancient DNA researcher who supervised Shapiro at Oxford
Allan WilsonBerkeley biologist who led the first ancient DNA study on the quagga in 1984
Bridgett vonHoldtPrinceton geneticist who identified coyote-like animals with substantial red wolf ancestry
Elinor KarlssonBroad Institute and UMass geneticist studying dog behavior genetics
Ernst MayrEvolutionary biologist and Diamond's collaborator on Melanesian birds
Carl LinnaeusSwedish naturalist who devised modern taxonomic nomenclature

Topics

From the publisher

Dr. Beth Shapiro, PhD, is an evolutionary biologist and Chief Science Officer at Colossal Biosciences. Her work focuses on de-extinction and wildlife conservation efforts. We discuss genetic differences among humans, and how ancient DNA and modern embryology are being used to de-extinct and protect woolly mammoths, dodo birds, and dire wolves, as well as to help conserve endangered species. We also explore the ethical implications of de-extinction and how synthetic biology can help build a more bio diverse and resilient world. Read the full episode show notes at hubermanlab.com. Thank you to our sponsors AG1: https://drinkag1.com/huberman Joovv: https://joovv.com/huberman Eight Sleep: https://eightsleep.com/huberman Function: https://functionhealth.com/huberman Timestamps (00:00:00) Beth Shapiro (00:02:35) What is a Species?, Taxonomy, Bison (00:09:13) Neanderthals, Denisovans, Homo Sapiens (00:12:38) Sponsors: Joovv & Eight Sleep (00:15:27) Hybrid Ancestry, “Grolar” Bears (00:20:30) Homo Sapiens & Neanderthal Interbreeding, Genes; Denisovans (00:25:53) Neanderthal Genes, Immunity, Red Hair; Eye Color (00:30:17) De-Extinction, Species Selection, Woolly Mammoths (00:38:08) Sponsor: AG1 (00:39:21) Bird De-Extinction, Dodo; Reproduction & Genes (00:47:40) Development Biology, Woolly Mammoth, Elephants (00:54:49) Dire Wolf, Synthetic Biology, Ethics (01:03:26) De-Extinction, Ecology, Conservation, Ethics (01:09:22) Ecosystem Resilience, Thylacine; Preventing Extinction, Quolls (01:15:45) Sponsor: Function (01:17:23) Modeling Ecological Impact, Mosquitoes, Gene Drives; Panthers (01:25:50) Advisory Panels, Synthetic Biology Education (01:29:13) Genetic Selection in Humans, Human-Shaped World (01:38:25) Black-Footed Ferrets, Genetic Rescue (01:47:05) Dire Wolf; Ecological Modeling, New Technology & Public Fear (01:55:09) Artificial Wombs; Current Issues, Conservation & Red Wolf (02:01:26) Science Pioneers; Colossal Public Education (02:04:31) Beth’s Science Origin Story;…

Summary, chapters and key points were generated from the episode transcript on October 25, 2026. Quotes are checked word for word against the transcript.

Categories: Life Sciences·Nature