How Do You Know When Work Becomes Trauma? Toxic Work Culture with Natalie Holder
Episode of Notes from the Edge · October 2, 2026 · 50 min
Lisa Lacy talks with employment attorney Natalie Holder about workplace trauma, exclusion, affinity bias, and how to plan a deliberate career pivot.
Summary
Host Lisa Lacy interviewed Natalie Holder, an employment attorney and author of the book Exclusion, which drew on interviews with more than 200 high-performing professionals. Holder defined workplace trauma as any harmful, distressing experience a person keeps reliving, and argued that it often takes quiet forms such as being left out of client meetings, denied informal mentorship, or bullied, which high achievers tend to minimize through what she called bargaining.
Holder argued against quitting impulsively, saying that naming an experience as trauma gives people the "language equipment" to avoid repeating the same pattern at the next employer. She described her own departure from the U.S. Capitol Police after January 6 for Stanford University, including her ambivalence about giving up law enforcement credentials that she felt protected her African-American family, and a poorly implemented peer support program housed in a room without a doorknob that signaled it was time to go. She recommended a personal board of directors made up of a former CEO, a futurist, a contrarian, and an employment lawyer or HR professional.
The conversation also covered shame and the economic concept of satisficing, affinity bias in promotion decisions (citing Stanford research she called Common Grounds), and leaders' duty to support employees they personally dislike. Holder recommended taking inventory of one's reasons for leaving and networking through professional associations, and promoted a pivot assessment on her website. Asked what she performed to survive, she said she felt obligated to act as a conventional lawyer and rejected the attention her viral culture-repair video vignettes received around 2008–2009.
Chapters
- 0:04
Introduction of Natalie Holder
Lisa Lacy introduces the show and her guest's background in employment law, HR compliance, and her book Exclusion.
- 2:26
What workplace trauma looks like
Holder defines workplace trauma and describes a high-performing lawyer excluded from a client meeting.
- 6:53
Why high performers stay and the need for language
Holder explains why naming trauma matters and argues against impulsive exits, using a client who nearly repeated her situation at a new employer.
- 13:39
Trauma bleeding into home life
Holder recalls plaintiffs on antidepressants and introduces her pivot assessment.
- 15:38
Interrogating the pivot: leaving Capitol Police
Holder recounts leaving the U.S. Capitol Police after January 6, the privilege of law enforcement credentials, and the doorknob-less peer support room.
- 22:48
A personal board of directors
Holder outlines four advisers everyone should have: a former CEO, a futurist, a contrarian, and an employment lawyer or HR professional.
- 26:50
Performing 'fine' and turning exclusion into opportunity
Holder discusses compartmentalizing, insider circles, and interviewees who founded companies or became better leaders.
- 31:19
Shame, guilt and satisficing
Holder explains how professionals settle for 'good enough for now' using the economics concept of satisficing.
- 34:23
Affinity bias and leaders' duty
Holder describes how familiarity drives advancement and how she ensured fair support for an employee she disliked.
- 39:31
What to do when stuck
Holder advises identifying the signal behind wanting to move, networking through professional associations, and considering internal moves.
- 43:58
Closing questions
Holder reflects on performing the role of lawyer, her viral video vignettes, and the need for conversations about supporting others.
Key points
What was said, by whom, with the exact words. Timestamps jump to the moment.
- Natalie Holder
Holder argues that workplace trauma need not be dramatic and can consist of tacit exclusion.
“sometimes it really is just that very tacit experience of exclusion that makes us feel As though this is something that has been deeply rooted”
- Natalie Holder
Holder defines workplace trauma as any harmful, distressing experience with deep impact that a person keeps reliving after the incident.
“a workplace trauma is anything that has occurred that is harmful, distressing, and really has deep-seated impact on you”
- Natalie Holder
Holder says she interviewed more than 200 professionals across industries for her book.
“I spoke to over 200 professionals from a number of different industries, from law to finance to the arts”
- Lisa Lacy
Lacy argues that workplace exclusion can resurface childhood experiences and that lingering, 'sticky' feelings signal a deeper layer.
“a workplace trauma like that, being excluded, can bring up something that happened to you when you were 10”
- Natalie Holder
Holder says clients who avoid calling their experiences trauma tend to repeat the same mistakes at different organizations.
“I have seen making the same mistakes in different organizations, all because they were afraid to call what they experienced trauma”
- Natalie Holder
Holder opposes leaving a job abruptly without a plan, likening it to a detrimental fall.
“I'm a big believer in not just simply getting up and leaving just because you're done, disgusted over nonsense endured”
- Natalie Holder
Holder cites Gallup as finding that almost 70% of people leave jobs due to poor leadership, more than leave over pay.
“according to Gallup, almost 70% of people leave due to, you know, poor leadership”
- Natalie Holder
Holder says that as a plaintiffs' lawyer many of her clients were on antidepressants and that workplace harm spills into personal relationships.
“I sadly remember my days of representing plaintiffs where many of my clients were on antidepressants”
- Natalie Holder
Holder argues pivots are scary mostly when people have not examined why they are leaving and what they are going into.
“pivots are mostly scary when we haven't really done our homework around why we're leaving and what we're going into”
- Natalie Holder
Holder recounts that she left the U.S. Capitol Police after January 6 to find a safer environment for her family.
“I remember when I was leaving U.S. Capitol Police, it was after January 6th, and I knew that I needed an environment that was more safe for my family”
- Natalie Holder
Holder says a peer support program proposed before January 6 was rejected because leaders disliked the official pitching it.
“Not only did they kill the messenger, but they killed the message, which is something that sadly happens in organizations, right?”
- Natalie Holder
Holder recommends that individuals have a personal board of directors to protect their interests, as corporations do for shareholders.
“If you don't have a personal board of directors, Who's protecting your interests?”
- Natalie Holder
Holder argues one board member should be an employment lawyer or HR professional because they understand how law and policy play out at work.
“I do believe you should have an employment lawyer or someone from human resources as that last part of your board of directors”
- Natalie Holder
Holder describes satisficing as a form of bargaining in which professionals tolerate disrespect because a job is good enough for now.
“I might not be respected. I might find that I'm not invited to meetings. I might find that I'm being paid less than someone else on the team. But it's good enough for now”
- Natalie Holder
Holder cites Stanford research as finding that advancement goes to those who connect with senior leaders rather than those with the best ideas.
“It's the person who is able to connect with the senior leader in the organization. And so that is the person who gets more airtime”
Linked moment · 36:24Skip to 36:24 using a listen link in the info box.
Natalie HolderHolder argues leaders have a duty to invest in team members they keep, regardless of whether they like them.
“if you have someone on your team, whether you like them or not, you have a duty to make sure that they're not left out of any sort of mechanisms”
- Natalie Holder
Holder says she landed her second law firm job through networking on New York City Bar Association committees.
“actually that is how I landed at my next firm because of the networking that I did”
- Natalie Holder
Holder reflects that she rejected the attention her viral culture-repair video received and should have embraced it.
“Had I been honest with myself, I would have leaned into it as opposed to reject it”
People
In the conversation
- Lisa LacyHost of Notes from the Edge; writer, trauma educator, executive advisor, and transformational coach
- Natalie HolderEmployment attorney, workplace strategist, author of Exclusion, and former corporate people and culture executive
Topics
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From the publisher
What happens when the workplace you once worked so hard to succeed in becomes the place you no longer recognize yourself? In this episode of Notes From the Edge , Lisa Lacy sits down with employment attorney, workplace strategist, author, and former corporate people and culture executive Natalie Holder for a powerful conversation about workplace trauma, exclusion, toxic work culture, self-advocacy, and career reinvention. Natalie explains why workplace trauma does not always look dramatic. Sometimes it is being left out of the room, overlooked for opportunities, quietly bullied, or repeatedly questioning whether what you are experiencing is “bad enough” to speak up about. They explore why high performers may be among the last people to leave unhealthy environments, why having language for what is happening matters, and how unresolved workplace experiences can follow us into the next job if we never stop to understand them. Natalie also challenges the idea that the answer is always to quit immediately. Sometimes the most powerful move is understanding what happened, getting support, planning your exit intentionally, and asking better questions about what you actually want next. In this episode: • How exclusion and workplace trauma can hide in plain sight • Why high performers may stay in unhealthy workplaces longer • Finding the language to advocate for yourself • Knowing when it is time to stay, leave, or strategically pivot • Building a career that supports who you are becoming Connect with Natalie Holder: https://natalieholderspeaks.com Connect with Lisa Lacy: https://www.lisalacy.com What did you perform in order to survive? Welcome to the Edge. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info .
Summary, chapters and key points were generated from the episode transcript on October 2, 2026. Quotes are checked word for word against the transcript.