Less guilt, more joy: A new chapter for climate action

Episode of TED Radio Hour · September 4, 2026 · 50 min

Manoush Zomorodi talks with social psychologist Elizabeth Dunn about climate actions that also increase happiness, featuring co-author Jiaying Zhao's TED Talk.

Summary

Manoush Zomorodi interviewed social psychologist Elizabeth Dunn about her book Leave the Lights On: How Joyful Decisions Can Save Our Species, co-written with University of British Columbia colleague Jiaying Zhao. Dunn described how a former partner's climate shaming had alienated her from the movement and how Zhao calculated that leaving the lights on in a clean-energy home for life would equal the emissions of about 13 hamburgers. Dunn argued that the 'doom and gloom' climate messaging of the 2010s did not motivate action and that happiness, a universal goal, could draw more people into high-impact 'sweet spot' behaviors.

Dunn defended individual action against the critique that the carbon footprint concept was a BP strategy to shift blame, while acknowledging that origin. She discussed maple syrup, savoring high-carbon foods such as chocolate and steak as occasional treats, the modest emissions of bacon relative to Beyond Meat burgers, social copying in cafeteria orders, online shopping versus driving to stores, prosocial spending and climate donations, and travel advice including nonstop flights, carry-on luggage and closer-to-home vacations.

A segment from Zhao's 2023 TED Talk recommended eating more plants without deprivation, buying high-quality jackets, jeans and shoes, reorganizing the fridge to reduce food waste, and carpooling or biking with friends. Dunn then addressed composting, privilege, where people live (contrasting clean-energy Vermont with Wyoming), whether to have children, and research suggesting that when about 25% of people change behavior, rapid social change can follow.

Chapters

  1. 0:41

    From climate shame to happiness

    Dunn recounts how an ex-boyfriend's shaming put her off climate action and how a colleague's calculation about lights changed her view.

  2. 4:04

    The doom and gloom era

    Dunn explains why fear-based climate messaging stopped motivating action, citing a global mega study.

  3. 7:23

    Origins of the sweet spot idea and individual action

    Dunn describes the bike ride that sparked the book and defends individual behavior change despite BP's role in popularizing the carbon footprint.

  4. 14:43

    Food: maple syrup, chocolate, steak and bacon

    Dunn discusses climate-friendly foods, savoring treats, political polarization and social contagion in food choices.

  5. 23:10

    Shopping and giving

    Dunn argues online shopping can cut emissions and recommends donating to climate organizations.

  6. 26:40

    Travel and flying

    Dunn explains the outsized impact of long-haul flights and offers tips like nonstop flights, carry-ons and nearby vacations.

  7. 30:58

    Billionaires and contagious behavior

    Dunn responds to frustration over wealthy people's emissions and cites solar panel contagion.

  8. 35:17

    Jiaying Zhao's TED Talk

    Zhao shares happy climate hacks about plant-based eating, shopping, fridge organization and carpooling.

  9. 40:36

    Composting, location and privilege

    Dunn addresses unpleasant climate tasks, the impact of where we live, and realistic behavior change.

  10. 48:30

    Having children and the 25% tipping point

    Dunn discusses research on children's emissions and how a 25% minority can drive rapid social change, like fish in a school.

Key points

What was said, by whom, with the exact words. Timestamps jump to the moment.

  • Elizabeth Dunn

    Dunn says that, per Zhao's calculation, leaving the lights on in her clean-energy condo for life would equal the emissions of 13 hamburgers.

    “I could leave the lights on in my two-bedroom condo for the rest of my life. And the carbon emissions cost would be equivalent to eating 13 hamburgers”

    Listen from 2:09 · Clean energy

  • Elizabeth Dunn

    Dunn reports that in a global mega study the doom message was widely shared but undermined willingness to take more effortful action.

    “this doom and gloom message actually undermined people's willingness to take a more effortful form of action”

    Listen from 5:32 · Climate change communication

  • Elizabeth Dunn

    Dunn argues that doom-and-gloom climate messaging captured attention but did not motivate action.

    “But the problem is doom and gloom messaging doesn't necessarily motivate action. Negative emotions get exhausting over time”

    Listen from 6:04 · Climate change communication

  • Elizabeth Dunn

    Dunn cites the IPCC as saying individual behavior change can reduce global emissions by 40 to 70 percent.

    “the International Panel on Climate Change says individual behavior change can reduce global emissions by 40 to 70 percent”

    Listen from 9:29 · Climate change

  • Elizabeth Dunn

    Dunn acknowledges that BP originated the carbon footprint idea as a deliberate attempt to shift blame onto individuals.

    “BP, the oil and gas company, was behind the original carbon footprint notion. And it was a calculated attempt to shift the blame”

    Listen from 11:39 · Carbon footprint

  • Elizabeth Dunn

    Dunn argues that eating high-carbon foods less often enhances people's ability to savor them, based on her chocolate experiment.

    “Having these high-carbon foods we enjoy a little less often can actually enhance our capacity to savor them”

    Listen from 16:49 · Happiness

  • Elizabeth Dunn

    Dunn says Beyond Meat burgers are not especially low-carbon and that a BLT would produce fewer emissions.

    “you would be better off eating a BLT than a Beyond Meat Burger in terms of carbon emissions”

    Listen from 20:32 · Plant-based diet

  • Elizabeth Dunn

    Dunn reports a UBC study finding that cafeteria customers ordered the same dish as the stranger ahead of them 72% of the time.

    “72% of the time people ordered the exact same dish as the random stranger standing in front of them”

    Listen from 22:22 · Social contagion

  • Elizabeth Dunn

    Dunn argues that online shopping is not inherently bad and can halve emissions compared with driving to stores, provided returns are minimized.

    “online shopping can actually cut emissions in half compared to driving around to all the stores that you need to go to”

    Listen from 23:50 · Online shopping environmental impact

  • Elizabeth Dunn

    Dunn says a vegan who flies New York to Thailand for the holidays ends up with the same emissions as a meat eater who stays home.

    “Somebody who eats vegan all year long but then flies from New York to Thailand for the holidays will end up with the same carbon emissions”

    Listen from 28:16 · Air travel emissions

  • Elizabeth Dunn

    Dunn recommends nonstop flights because takeoff burns a lot of fuel, giving them a lower carbon cost than one-stop itineraries.

    “nonstop flights are going to come with a much lower carbon price tag than even a one-stop”

    Listen from 29:13 · Air travel emissions

  • Elizabeth Dunn

    Dunn says running an air conditioner for a week emits about eight pounds of carbon in Vermont versus a thousand pounds in Wyoming.

    “You're going to emit a thousand pounds of carbon. So the weight of a full grown horse, right?”

    Listen from 43:31 · Clean energy

  • Linked moment · 48:30Skip to 48:30 using a listen link in the info box.

    Elizabeth Dunn

    Dunn says the researcher behind the study used to argue against having children never intended that message, and per-child emissions have since declined.

    “since that original research was published, the emissions associated with each one of us has actually declined”

    Listen from 49:56 · Climate change

  • Elizabeth Dunn

    Dunn cites research that when about 25% of people change behavior, rapid social change can follow, without a majority being needed.

    “There's recent research showing that when just 25% of us change our behavior... Rapid social change can occur just more quickly than any of us would have imagined”

    Listen from 51:27 · Social tipping points

People

In the conversation

  • Manoush ZomorodiHost of NPR's TED Radio Hour
  • Elizabeth DunnSocial psychologist and happiness researcher at the University of British Columbia, co-author of Leave the Lights On
  • Jiaying ZhaoUniversity of British Columbia behavioral scientist and climate researcher (called Jay-Z), co-author of Leave the Lights On, heard via her TED Talk

Discussed

Topics

More from TED Radio Hour

From the publisher

Climate action usually means sacrifice: eat less meat, buy less, drive less. What if there's another approach? Researcher Elizabeth Dunn shares climate hacks that help the planet AND make us happier. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for sponsorship and to manage your podcast sponsorship preferences. NPR Privacy Policy

Summary, chapters and key points were generated from the episode transcript on October 4, 2026. Quotes are checked word for word against the transcript.

Categories: Earth Sciences·Social Sciences·Self-Improvement