What’s Epic About the ‘Odyssey’? Everything.
Episode of The Daily · July 12, 2026 · 51 min
Natalie Kitroeff talks with translator Emily Wilson and novelist Madeline Miller about the Odyssey ahead of Christopher Nolan's film adaptation.
Summary
Ahead of the theatrical release of Christopher Nolan's film adaptation of the Odyssey, Natalie Kitroeff hosted a Sunday edition of The Daily with classicist Emily Wilson, the first woman to translate Homer's Odyssey into English, and novelist Madeline Miller, author of Circe and The Song of Achilles. The three recapped the poem's plot and described how they first encountered it — Wilson through a childhood school play in which she performed as Athena and later through reading Homer in Greek, Miller through her mother's bedtime readings, especially Penelope's trick of weaving and unweaving a shroud.
Wilson explained her translation choices, saying she wanted to reactivate the poem's meter by using iambic pentameter and matching the original's line count, and that she varied Homer's repeated epithets to convey their multiple meanings. She read her rendering of the Scylla and Charybdis passage. Miller described adapting Circe by centering the goddess's agency and building on Homer's description of Circe as speaking like a human. Both argued that anger at new translations or retellings is misplaced, comparing it to wanting only one production of King Lear, and Wilson said much of the online hostility she received was about modern ideas of masculinity rather than about the poem.
The conversation then moved to a character-by-character discussion of Odysseus, Penelope, Telemachus, Athena, Poseidon and Calypso, including Miller's view that Odysseus shows signs of what modern readers would call PTSD and Wilson's account of Penelope's dream of the geese and the eagle.
On the Nolan film, both said they were excited and dismissed purist complaints about casting, costumes and modern language, noting that the Homeric poems were adapted for performance already in antiquity. Wilson raised concerns that the film might frame the story primarily as a romance and might underplay the enslaved members of Odysseus's household, particularly Eurycleia; Miller said she always wishes adaptations gave more to the women. Both pointed to hospitality and welcoming the stranger as the theme most resonant today.
Chapters
- 0:29
Greek greetings and setup
The hosts and guests try out an ancient Greek greeting before Kitroeff introduces the episode and recaps the Odyssey's plot.
- 3:43
How each fell in love with the Odyssey
Wilson recalls playing Athena in a school play and later reading Homer in Greek, while Miller describes her mother's bedtime readings and Penelope's shroud trick.
- 6:44
Translating the Odyssey into iambic pentameter
Wilson explains why she retranslated the poem, her use of meter and line count, and reads her version of the Scylla and Charybdis passage.
- 11:25
Writing Circe from the witch's perspective
Miller discusses why she built a novel around a minor character and how she reinterpreted Circe's power and isolation.
- 13:36
What is fixed and what is movable in adaptation
Wilson discusses repetition and epithets while Miller describes her guiding principle of Circe's agency in retelling.
- 19:33
Backlash, trolls and translation purism
Wilson addresses misogynistic trolling and both guests argue that no single translation or interpretation can erase the others.
- 23:39
Why the poem still resonates
Wilson points to the poem's big emotions and Miller to the feeling of recognizing oneself across millennia.
- 27:19
Who's who: Odysseus and Penelope
The guests unpack Odysseus's complexity, possible trauma and duplicity, and Penelope's intelligence and unknowability.
- 36:16
Telemachus, Athena and the gods
The guests discuss Telemachus's youth and isolation and give a lightning round on Athena, Poseidon and Calypso.
- 40:46
Anticipating Nolan's film and its casting
Wilson and Miller say they are excited about the adaptation and dismiss purist criticism of casting, costumes and modern language.
- 44:54
Worries about the adaptation
Wilson fears the film may frame the story as a romance and sideline Eurycleia and the enslaved household, while Miller expects to want more of the women.
- 49:07
Hospitality as the lasting lesson
Both guests conclude that the poem's emphasis on welcoming the stranger is its most resonant theme today.
Key points
What was said, by whom, with the exact words. Timestamps jump to the moment.
- Emily Wilson
Wilson argues the Odyssey is not merely a children's adventure story but a psychologically deep work about grief, rage and loss.
“It's not just a kid's adventure story. It also has so much to say about these really deep questions about grief and rage and loss and whether full recovery or going back in time is ever possible”
- Madeline Miller
Miller says Penelope's shroud trick reveals both her cleverness and the gender roles of the period, since the suitors have no idea how long weaving takes.
“she knows that they have no idea how long it takes to weave a shroud. And so it's like a great trick that like really reveals sort of the gender roles of the time as well”
Linked moment · 6:44Skip to 6:44 using a listen link in the info box.
Emily WilsonWilson says she translated the Odyssey into traditional English meter because existing translations failed to activate the poem's rhythm and oral performance quality.
“it seemed to me that I needed to use traditional poetic form, the meter of Shakespeare and Milton, in order to activate for an English listener or English reader some elements of what did Homer sound like”
- Emily Wilson
Wilson rejects the modern assumption that contemporary readers cannot tolerate metrical rhythm in translation.
“in the modern era, there's been this assumption that modern readers can't tolerate rhythm, which I think is false. I think modern readers can totally tolerate rhythm and, in fact, love it”
- Madeline Miller
Miller says the Odyssey gives only Odysseus's self-serving account of Circe, which motivated her to tell the story from Circe's perspective.
“all we get is Odysseus' version. It's literally him telling the story to some other people to make himself look good”
- Emily Wilson
Wilson argues that varying the translation of repeated epithets can convey more of a character's full range because the Greek words carry multiple meanings.
“If I can change how I translate that to fit a different context, then I'm going to give the reader or the listener more of the all-around characterization of the character because the original word connotes all of those things”
- Madeline Miller
Miller says successful retellings are judged not by closeness to the text but by the fullness of the writer's vision.
“When you are adapting, there really are no rules. You can write very close to the text and not be successful and very far from the text and be completely successful”
- Emily Wilson
Wilson contends that the trolls attacking her translation are not actually interested in the Odyssey but in modern ideas of masculinity, whiteness and Western identity.
“It's all just online performativity about modern notions about masculinity and greatness and... and actually whiteness and westernness as well. None of that is about the Odyssey”
- Emily Wilson
Wilson says it is strange to think one translation erases others and that the canon has room for many interpretations.
“I think there's something quite strange about the idea that the canon doesn't have room for many, many different interpretations, translations, engagements, reinventions”
- Madeline Miller
Miller compares objections to new versions of the Odyssey to wanting only one production of King Lear to exist.
“it's like, you know, wanting there to be only one production of King Lear ever. And that's it. No other productions, no other ideas”
- Emily Wilson
Wilson says Odysseus is complicated because of his multiplicity, code-switching and capacity for self-reinvention, unlike other Homeric heroes.
“He has this capacity for self-reinvention and for having multiple identities, which is very different from anyone else in the universe, in the Homeric universe”
- Madeline Miller
Miller argues that Odysseus displays what modern readers would recognize as PTSD, though the ancients had no word for it.
“The ancients didn't have a word for PTSD, but I feel that he clearly chose it. And there are other ancient texts where we can see it as well”
- Emily Wilson
Wilson states that Homeric heroes are not meant to be morally good people, contrasting ancient and modern notions of heroism.
“But none of the heroes are good people. That's not the point of being a hero,”
- Madeline Miller
Miller argues the text clearly presents Penelope as Odysseus's equal, citing her final test of the immovable bed.
“So I think it's in the text that she is absolutely meant to be brilliant. But like him, I think she's a complicated figure”
- Emily Wilson
Wilson reads Penelope's dream of the geese as expressing ambivalence and her lack of control over her fate.
“her attitude is defined by this sense of she's stuck between two different narratives. She doesn't know what's going to happen”
- Madeline Miller
Miller says Telemachus is hard to connect with because the poem catches him at a moment of youth, anxiety and immaturity.
“the Telemachus we see in that moment in the Odyssey may not be the Telemachus he is his whole life. It's who he is at this moment of anxiety and immaturity, honestly”
- Emily Wilson
Wilson says the first four books dwell on Telemachus's isolation, and his journey to manhood arguably remains incomplete once Odysseus returns.
“the son's journey to manhood, which is arguably a not fully complete journey because Odysseus comes back and then Odysseus is the man”
- Emily Wilson
Wilson predicts some moviegoers will go back to the original poem after seeing the film and welcomes that.
“some proportion of the people who go to the movie will then turn back to the original poem, which I think is great”
- Emily Wilson
Wilson says Matt Damon would not have been her first pick for Odysseus but expects him to do well.
“I don't think he was Christopher Nolan's first pick. He wouldn't have been my first pick, but I think he'll do a great job”
- Emily Wilson
Wilson calls purist criticism of the adaptation muddle-headed, noting the Homeric poems were already adapted for performance in antiquity.
“I mean, I think it's pretty muddle-headed, really. Already in antiquity, the Homeric poems were adapted for performance”
- Emily Wilson
Wilson worries Hollywood norms will deny an older actress the role of Eurycleia and that the enslaved household may be underrepresented.
“I think it would be a shame if the norms of Hollywood meant an older woman actor isn't going to get a part in that scene”
- Emily Wilson
Wilson argues the poem shows homecoming is an exclusive privilege denied to the enslaved, who belong to someone else's house.
“they don't get a homecoming journey because they belong to someone else's homecoming journey”
- Madeline Miller
Miller says she expects to want more of the women's stories in any Odyssey adaptation, as they usually function only to help or obstruct.
“so many of the women are just kept as these sort of mysterious figures who come in and help or obstruct”
- Emily Wilson
Wilson identifies welcoming the stranger into one's house as the theme of the Odyssey that most resonates with the present.
“one of the big themes of the Odyssey that very much resonates with our time is the importance of welcoming the stranger into”
People
In the conversation
- Natalie KitroeffNew York Times journalist and host of The Daily
- Emily WilsonClassicist and translator, the first woman to translate Homer's Odyssey into English
- Madeline MillerAmerican novelist and classics teacher, author of Circe and The Song of Achilles
Discussed
- HomerAncient Greek poet credited with the Iliad and the Odyssey
- Christopher NolanBritish-American film director adapting the Odyssey for the screen
- Matt DamonAmerican actor cast as Odysseus in Nolan's film
- Anne HathawayAmerican actress cast as Penelope
- Tom HollandEnglish actor cast as Telemachus
- ZendayaAmerican actress cast as Athena
- Charlize TheronSouth African-American actress cited by Wilson as claiming nerd credentials
- AchillesGreek hero of the Iliad, contrasted with Odysseus
- SophoclesAncient Greek tragedian whose Philoctetes portrays Odysseus more villainously
- William ShakespeareEnglish playwright cited as a model for English metrical verse
- John MiltonEnglish poet cited as a model for English metrical verse
Topics
Related episodes
Messi Takes England Out of the World Cup, Plus Preparing for Christopher Nolan’s 'The Odyssey' With Ian Wright, Anthony Dabbundo, and Sean FennesseyThe Bill Simmons Podcast · Jul 16, 2026 · 1 h 51 min
Guest host Chris Ryan discusses England's World Cup semifinal loss to Argentina with Ian Wright, previews the Spain–Argentina final with Anthony Dabbundo, and talks Christopher Nolan's 'The Odyssey' with Sean Fennessey.
688. The Odyssey: Return of the King (Part 2)The Rest Is History · Jul 15, 2026 · 1 h 6 min
Tom Holland and Dominic Sandbrook retell the second half of Homer's Odyssey, from Telemachus's journey and Calypso's island to the slaughter of the suitors and reunion with Penelope.
- 687. The Odyssey: Hero of the Trojan Horse (Part 1)
The Rest Is History · Jul 12, 2026 · 1 h 12 min
Tom Holland and Dominic Sandbrook retell the first half of Homer's Odyssey, from Troy's fall to Calypso's island, and probe its roots in Greek colonisation.
- 666. Wine and the Birth of Civilisation
The Rest Is History · May 3, 2026 · 1 h 16 min
Tom Holland and Dominic Sandbrook trace the history of wine through seven key moments, from Neolithic Georgia and Rome to Islam, English bottles, French terroir and the 1976 Judgement of Paris.
- Spain Prevails, World Cup Winners and Losers, and Damon Vs. Leo With Chris Ryan and Anthony Dabbundo
The Bill Simmons Podcast · Jul 20, 2026 · 1 h 50 min
Bill Simmons, Chris Ryan and Anthony Dabbundo react to Spain's 1-0 World Cup final win over Argentina, rank tournament winners and losers, and compare Matt Damon and Leonardo DiCaprio.
Reale Actives FC: Wednesday, July 15th, 2026The Toast · Jul 15, 2026 · 54 min
Jackie and Claudia Oshry unveil a studio makeover and discuss Elle, Alix Earle's Time cover, Hailey Bieber's Gap jeans, Summer House, the World Cup, and a Taco Bell-linked parasite outbreak.
More from The Daily
Chris Rock Has Been Thinking About ForgivenessOct 3, 2026 · 1 h 3 min
Chris Rock tells David Marchese about his film Misty Green, forgiveness, cancel culture, therapy and an NVLD diagnosis, Hollywood, and why comedy needs nuance.
The Best TV Shows of the 21st CenturySep 27, 2026 · 57 min
Natalie Kitroeff talks with Times colleagues Gilbert Cruz and James Poniewozik about the New York Times list of the 100 best TV shows of the 21st century.
Sylvester Stallone Hid His Struggles for Decades. Now He’s Coming Clean.Sep 26, 2026 · 1 h 17 min
Sylvester Stallone tells Lulu Garcia-Navarro about his abusive childhood, anxiety, bulimia and steroid use, his rivalry with Schwarzenegger, and career collapses and comebacks.
Can a Bad Man Be a Good Father?Jun 21, 2026 · 47 min
Michael Barbaro talks with writer Tom Junod about his charismatic, philandering father Lou and the secret half-sister Junod uncovered after his father's death.
Popcast: Olivia Rodrigo Tried Writing Love Songs. Then Life Got Messy.May 31, 2026 · 1 h 30 min
Olivia Rodrigo talks with Popcast's Jon Caramanica and Joe Coscarelli about her third album, songwriting, fame, politics, Taylor Swift speculation and girlhood.
From the publisher
This Friday, “The Odyssey,” directed by Christopher Nolan, hits theaters. Even before the movie’s release, though, it’s proving to be a cultural event. Spirited discussions of Nolan’s cinematic interpretation of the epic poem already abound online, and they are likely to intensify after the public sees the film. Why does a 12,000-line poem that is nearly 3,000 years old still feel resonant today? In this episode of “The Sunday Daily,” Natalie Kitroeff talks about the “Odyssey” with two writers who have produced some critically acclaimed and widely read modern interpretations of Greek classics: Emily Wilson, the first woman to translate the “Odyssey” from ancient Greek, and Madeline Miller, the author of the best-selling novels “Circe” and “Song of Achilles.”
Summary, chapters and key points were generated from the episode transcript on September 27, 2026. Quotes are checked word for word against the transcript.