#2500 - Scott Horton

Episode of The Joe Rogan Experience · May 15, 2026 · 2 h 41 min

Joe Rogan talks with libertarian antiwar author Scott Horton about neoconservative foreign policy, NATO expansion and the Ukraine war, and the US war with Iran.

Summary

Scott Horton, director of the Libertarian Institute and author of Provoked, joined Joe Rogan for a wide-ranging conversation on American foreign policy. After discussing his recent Oxford Union debate loss on Ukraine and the decline of broadcast media, Horton traced his move away from New World Order conspiracy thinking and argued that post-Cold War policy was shaped by the Wolfowitz Doctrine, the Project for a New American Century and the 1996 Clean Break paper written for Benjamin Netanyahu, which he linked to the Iraq War and Wesley Clark's account of plans to topple seven countries.

On Ukraine, Horton argued that Washington broke assurances to Soviet and Russian leaders by expanding NATO, backed changes of government in Kyiv in 2004 and 2014, and followed the logic of a 2019 RAND study, Extending Russia, to overextend Moscow. He discussed the Nord Stream sabotage, saying he believed the United States at least supported it, and argued that Biden-era policy drove Russia toward China. Rogan pushed back on Horton's suggestion that Taiwanese chip manufacturing could simply be moved to Austin, citing the complexity of semiconductor fabrication.

Most of the second half concerned the 2026 US war with Iran. Horton argued that Iranian missile strikes on US bases exposed America's Middle East military presence as a hollow bluff, that Netanyahu persuaded Trump to treat any Iranian enrichment as equivalent to a weapons program, and that Iran's safeguarded program had been verified by the IAEA. The two discussed a reported military briefing framing the war as bringing about Armageddon, a New York Times account of the Situation Room meeting with Netanyahu, and Israel's historical influence on US presidents from Truman to Clinton. Horton recommended that the US withdraw from the region, predicted that Iran was more likely than before to seek a bomb while not forecasting it outright, and described an Austin shooting as "backdraft" terrorism.

Chapters

0:03
Oxford debate, Piers Morgan and the media shift
Horton describes losing an Oxford debate on Ukraine, appearing on Piers Morgan, and giving up his KPFK radio show as podcasting eclipsed broadcast.
6:41
New World Order and the Wolfowitz Doctrine
Horton explains his early New World Order beliefs and argues that US policy instead aimed at American global dominance as laid out in the Defense Planning Guidance.
12:27
Neoconservatives, seven countries and the Clean Break
Horton connects Wesley Clark's seven-countries account, the neoconservative network in the Bush administration, and the Clean Break paper to the Iraq War.
23:34
Cost of the Iraq War and lessons from Venezuela
The two discuss trillions spent on the terror war, overconfidence after easy victories, and reports of Israel killing Iranian negotiators.
29:00
How the Ukraine conflict began
Horton argues that NATO expansion broke promises to Moscow, that the US backed changes of government in Kyiv, and that Ukraine is Russia's Canada.
43:06
Extending Russia, Kazakhstan and Nord Stream
Horton describes the RAND study on overextending Russia, US meddling in Belarus and Kazakhstan, and competing theories of the Nord Stream sabotage.
1:02:55
China, Taiwan and chip manufacturing
Horton argues China is not a threat to North America while Rogan contends Taiwan's semiconductor lead cannot easily be replicated in the US.
1:16:02
Iran's strikes on US bases
Horton argues Iranian missile attacks exposed America's Middle East military empire and recounts long-standing Pentagon warnings about escalation dominance.
1:25:30
Armageddon briefing, Daryl Cooper and World War II
They discuss a commander's reported claim that the war would bring Christ's return, defend Daryl Cooper against misrepresentation, and discuss World War II orthodoxy and Dick Cheney.
1:44:33
Iran's nuclear program and the NPT
Horton explains enrichment, IAEA safeguards, the JCPOA and Iran's latent deterrent, arguing Netanyahu convinced Trump to change US red lines.
1:57:24
The Situation Room meeting and Israeli influence
They discuss the New York Times account of Netanyahu briefing Trump, Vance's absence in Azerbaijan, and Israeli pressure on presidents from Truman to Clinton.
2:13:09
Where the Iran war goes from here
Horton urges US withdrawal from the region, warns of blowback including an Austin shooting, and argues the war has strengthened Iran before closing with his shows and books.

Key points

What was said, by whom, with the exact words. Timestamps jump to the moment.

Scott Horton
Horton says he gave up his KPFK radio show in Los Angeles because podcasting had made radio irrelevant.
“I actually gave up my last radio show on KPFK in Los Angeles last year”
Listen from 4:10
Scott Horton
Horton argues that the post-Cold War 'New World Order' meant building up Washington, not the United Nations, as a world government.
“it was never to build up the un as the world government it was to build up washington dc as the world government”
Listen from 7:37 · Wolfowitz Doctrine
Scott Horton
Horton says Richard Perle and David Wurmser wrote the Clean Break paper in 1996 for Netanyahu, and that it underlies later US policy.
“But Perle and David Wormser had written up this policy paper called A Clean Break in 1996. And they wrote it for Netanyahu when he was first prime minister”
Listen from 16:36 · Clean Break memo
Scott Horton
Horton argues that the Iraq War empowered Iran rather than the US allies it was meant to strengthen.
“what happened then in the war was they just empowered Iran. They didn't empower Jordan and Turkey and America and Israel over the Iraqis”
Listen from 20:10 · Iraq War
Scott Horton
Horton estimates that the Iraq War cost at least $5–7 trillion and the whole terror war about $10 trillion.
“On Iraq alone, at least $5 or $7 trillion. I think it was probably $10 trillion for the whole terror war”
Listen from 24:00 · Iraq War
Scott Horton
Horton compares Ukraine's importance to Russia with Canada's importance to the United States.
“Ukraine is Russia's Canada, right? Kazakhstan's their Mexico. Ukraine's their Canada”
Listen from 33:58 · Enlargement of NATO
Scott Horton
Horton asserts that George H. W. Bush first promised Gorbachev at Malta in 1989 that the US would not take advantage of the Warsaw Pact states' departure.
“H.W. Bush gave the first promise to Gorbachev in Malta in December of 1989”
Listen from 36:06 · Enlargement of NATO
Scott Horton
Horton blames the Ukraine war on the Russia policy of US administrations from George H. W. Bush through Joe Biden rather than on Kyiv.
“I'm blaming it on essentially Bush senior through Joe Biden that they all of them had such a ham handed Russia policy that it led to this”
Listen from 40:48 · Provoked: How Washington Started the New Cold War with Russia and the Catastrophe in Ukraine
Scott Horton
Horton describes the 2019 RAND study as a plan to provoke Russia into overextending itself.
“it's called extending russia And by extending Russia, they mean overextending them”
Listen from 43:28 · Extending Russia (RAND Corporation study)
Scott Horton
Horton argues that Biden's strategy of bogging Russia down in Ukraine backfired by strengthening Russia–China ties.
“I think it was totally wrong because it just strengthened the relationship between Russia and China”
Listen from 49:52 · Russian invasion of Ukraine
Scott Horton
Horton says he does not know who destroyed Nord Stream but is sure the perpetrators had at least US support.
“Now, I don't know exactly who blew up that pipeline, but I'm sure they had at least the support of the United States”
Listen from 54:52 · Nord Stream pipelines sabotage
Scott Horton
Horton argues that China is an overextended, largely poor empire with little appetite for conquest beyond Taiwan.
“I think China's already a pretty overextended empire and it's very poor in many parts of it”
Listen from 1:07:45
Joe Rogan
Rogan disputes that chip fabrication could simply be moved from Taiwan to Austin, calling it one of the hardest technological challenges.
“I think chip manufacturing is one of the most complex technological challenges in 2026”
Listen from 1:10:40 · Semiconductor industry in Taiwan
Scott Horton
Horton argues that Iran's strikes on US bases showed America's Middle East military empire to be a bluff that Iran successfully called.
“America's military empire in the Middle East is completely bankrupt, right? That whole thing was a hollow bluff, and the Iranians just called it, and we lost”
Listen from 1:16:19 · United States war with Iran
Scott Horton
Horton cites recent reporting that officials admit Iran retains most of its missiles and launchers.
“admitting now that the Iranians still have 70, 75 percent of all their missiles and launchers”
Listen from 1:24:07 · United States war with Iran
Joe Rogan
Rogan defends Darryl Cooper, saying that anyone who listens to his Israel series and considers him antisemitic is wrong.
“Anybody who listens to that and thinks that guy's anti-semitic is fucking crazy”
Listen from 1:32:19
Scott Horton
Horton alleges that Clinton-era licensing let Hughes and Loral transfer advanced rocket technology to China.
“Hughes Aircraft and Loral Corporation then sent their very best three-stage rocket technology to China”
Listen from 1:48:39
Scott Horton
Horton argues that Netanyahu persuaded Trump to adopt Israel's position that any Iranian civilian nuclear program equals a weapons program.
“Netanyahu convinced Trump to change that line and to adopt the Israeli line that for them to have a civilian nuclear program at all is equivalent”
Listen from 1:49:03 · Nuclear program of Iran
Scott Horton
Horton says there is no proof that US strikes destroyed the centrifuges at Natanz and Fordow, though the sites appear frozen.
“I don't think there's any proof that they destroyed the centrifuges at Natanz and Fordow”
Listen from 1:56:27 · Nuclear program of Iran
Scott Horton
Horton says Mordechai Vanunu personally confirmed to him that Israel had about 200 atomic bombs at the time of his disclosure.
“that they had 200 atom bombs by the time that he squealed on them”
Listen from 2:07:09
Scott Horton
Horton assesses that Iran is now more likely than ever to try to build a bomb, while declining to predict it outright.
“they're more likely to go ahead and try to break out and make an atom bomb now than ever before, although I'm not necessarily predicting that”
Listen from 2:13:17 · Nuclear program of Iran
Linked moment · 2:15:41Skip to 2:15:41 using a listen link in the info box.
Scott Horton
Horton recommends that the United States end the war and withdraw its forces from the Middle East.
“I really think that the thing to do is just quit. The thing to do is for America to just come home”
Listen from 2:15:41 · United States war with Iran
Scott Horton
Horton describes his coined term 'backdraft' terrorism, citing an Austin shooting after the war began as an example.
“backdraft terrorism is when the consequences of your overt foreign policies just blow up right in your face”
Listen from 2:21:39 · United States war with Iran
Scott Horton
Horton argues Trump's war has boosted Iranian regional power about as much as George W. Bush's Iraq War did.
“what Donald Trump has done with this war is about at least equivalent to what W. Bush did in terms of enhancing Iranian power in the region”
Listen from 2:29:03 · United States war with Iran

People

In the conversation

Joe RoganAmerican comedian and host of The Joe Rogan Experience
Scott HortonDirector of the Libertarian Institute, editorial director of Antiwar.com, host of The Scott Horton Show and author of Provoked

Discussed

Paul WolfowitzU.S. Deputy Secretary of Defense during the Iraq War
Benjamin NetanyahuPrime Minister of Israel
Donald TrumpPresident of the United States whose conduct of the Iran war is the episode's main subject
Wesley ClarkRetired U.S. Army general who described a post-9/11 plan to attack seven countries
Richard PerleAmerican neoconservative policy adviser and co-author of the Clean Break memo
David WurmserNeoconservative analyst and principal author of the Clean Break paper
George KennanAmerican diplomat who devised containment and opposed NATO expansion
Strobe TalbottDeputy secretary of state under Bill Clinton and proponent of NATO expansion
Victoria NulandFormer US State Department official involved in Ukraine policy
Seymour HershInvestigative journalist who attributed the Nord Stream sabotage to US Navy divers
George FriedmanFounder of Stratfor geopolitical intelligence firm
Darryl CooperPodcaster and Horton's co-host on Provoked
Dave SmithLibertarian comedian and podcaster, mutual friend of Rogan and Horton
JD VanceVice President of the United States
Dick CheneyU.S. Vice President and former Halliburton CEO, whom Blaber and Ryan link to war logistics contracting
Mikey WeinsteinFounder of the Military Religious Freedom Foundation
Bill ClintonU.S. president Jiang associates with the Washington Consensus and Oslo peace process
Mordechai VanunuIsraeli nuclear whistleblower
Pat BuchananConservative commentator and author of Churchill, Hitler and the Unnecessary War
Smedley ButlerUS Marine Corps general and author of War Is a Racket
Joe BidenFormer president whose economic approval is compared to Trump's
Oliver StoneFilm director of JFK
Lyndon B. Johnson36th U.S. president

Topics

Have Republicans Already Blown the Midterms?
Pod Save America · Oct 18, 2026 · 1 h 11 min
Dan Pfeiffer and Cook Political Report's Amy Walter assess the 2026 midterm landscape two weeks out, covering Senate and House races, polling, Trump, and redistricting.
#346 James Lechner - Army Ranger Recounts the Battle of Mogadishu: Black Hawk Down
The Shawn Ryan Show · Oct 8, 2026 · 3 h 20 min
Retired Army Ranger James Lechner tells Shawn Ryan about fighting and being wounded in the 1993 Battle of Mogadishu, turning around Ramadi, Afghanistan policy failures, and the war in Ukraine.
JRE MMA Show #186 with Sean Sharaf
The Joe Rogan Experience · Oct 1, 2026 · 2 h 21 min
Joe Rogan talks with UFC heavyweight Sean Sharaf about his 12-second upset knockout of Gable Steveson, possible retirement, MMA rules, Gaza, surveillance, and AI.
Impeach Pete Hegseth?
Pod Save America · Sep 29, 2026 · 58 min
Jon Favreau, Tommy Vietor and Jon Lovett discuss diesel prices, a Republican data center bill, rogue AI models, a possible Pete Hegseth impeachment and Trump's taxpayer-funded ads.
“This Will Be The Most Violent Election Of Our Lifetime” - Robert Pape #1154
Modern Wisdom · Sep 24, 2026 · 1 h 43 min
Political scientist Robert Pape tells Chris Williamson that mass public support for political violence makes the coming US midterms the most dangerous election in living memory.
#2555 - Ron White
The Joe Rogan Experience · Sep 16, 2026 · 2 h 34 min
Joe Rogan and comedian Ron White discuss Kill Tony, cigars, cars, fitness, Texas politics, cannabis laws, the Iran war, Jelly Roll's Kimmel monologue, and religion.

From the publisher

Scott Horton is the director of the Libertarian Institute, host of “The Scott Horton Show,” co-host of “Provoked” with Darryl Cooper, and author of several books, the most recent of which is “Provoked: How Washington Started the New Cold War With Russia and the Catastrophe in Ukraine.” www.thefactsaboutiran.comwww.youtube.com/@scotthortonshowwww.youtube.com/@Provoked_Showwww.libertarianinstitute.orgwww.scotthortonacademy.comwww.scotthortonshow.comwww.scotthorton.org Perplexity: Download the app or ask Perplexity anything at https://pplx.ai/rogan. Try ZipRecruiter FOR FREE at https://ziprecruiter.com/rogan Get Visible for just $20/mo for 1 year. Use code FRESHSTART. Switch & see terms at https://www.visible.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Summary, chapters and key points were generated from the episode transcript on September 28, 2026. Quotes are checked word for word against the transcript.

Categories: Politics·History·News Commentary