#2562 - Dan McClellan

Episode of The Joe Rogan Experience · October 7, 2026 · 2 h 42 min

Joe Rogan talks with biblical scholar Dan McClellan about how the Bible was written, ancient Near Eastern sources, hell, cognition and religion in public life.

Summary

Biblical scholar Dan McClellan joined Joe Rogan for a wide-ranging conversation about the origins and development of the Bible. After small talk about memory and diet, McClellan presented a replica of a Kuntillet Ajrud inscription, which he said most scholars read as referring to the God of Israel and his consort Asherah, and explained that every ancient text was written to achieve some purpose. He discussed parallels between the Moses and Sargon birth stories, gospel passages he said were shaped to address early followers' experiences, the scholarly consensus that several Pauline epistles were not written by Paul, and Paul's expectation of an imminent second coming.

McClellan dated much of Genesis to the 8th–5th centuries BCE, linked the Tower of Babel to the Etemenanki ziggurat, traced the alphabet back to adapted Egyptian signs in the Sinai, and described the decipherment of Ugaritic and its parallels with Isaiah's Leviathan passage. He argued that the 1 Enoch account of fallen angels was likely the dominant explanation for evil before the New Testament, explained why modern Bibles omit about 16 verses found in the King James Version, discussed the Dead Sea Scrolls, the Ethiopian Bible's limited text-critical value, evidence of cannabis on an altar at the Arad temple, and why John Marco Allegro's mushroom thesis was rejected by linguists.

On hell, McClellan said the New Testament contains inconsistent ideas of post-mortem punishment and argued that eternal torment for all non-believers was a later systematization. He used the Cornsweet illusion and Jonathan Haidt's work to illustrate how intuitive cognition shapes reasoning. Declining to discuss his personal faith publicly, he connected the prophetic critique of performative piety to modern neglect of the poor; Rogan argued that a nominally Christian nation should invest in impoverished inner cities. Both criticized religious instruction in public schools, and McClellan discussed Confederate statues, his runs for the Utah legislature, his book The Bible Says So and a forthcoming book on how the biblical God changes.

Chapters

0:04
Introductions, memory and diet
Rogan and McClellan discuss parasocial meetings, memory, creatine, fiber, FODMAPs and altitude training.
13:07
The Kuntillet Ajrud artifact and textual purpose
McClellan presents a replica inscription depicting Yahweh and Asherah and explains that ancient texts were written to accomplish goals, discussing genre and the Moses–Sargon parallel.
23:28
Jesus in the Gospels and the letters of Paul
McClellan discusses gospel dating, words attributed to Jesus, disputed Pauline authorship and Paul's call for celibacy before an expected imminent return.
34:45
Origins of Genesis
McClellan discusses Sumerian king lists, the dating of Genesis, the Tower of Babel and Etemenanki, and the oldest Hebrew poetry.
41:46
Writing, alphabets and Ugaritic
McClellan traces the alphabet's origins, describes his path into biblical studies and cognitive science of religion, and explains the Ugaritic discovery and Leviathan parallels.
59:24
Chaos, gods and parochial empathy
The pair discuss chaos-dragon myths, gods as covert monitors enabling large societies, parochial empathy and the Neanderthal Shanidar 1.
1:13:05
Adam and Eve, 1 Enoch and textual changes
McClellan contrasts Adam and Eve with the Enochic account of evil and explains verses omitted from modern translations and Dead Sea Scrolls contributions.
1:29:14
Archaeology, Arad and Allegro
Discussion of the accident of preservation, the Arad temple's cannabis residue, and why scholars rejected John Allegro's Sacred Mushroom thesis.
1:40:51
The flood, the Ethiopian Bible and 1 Enoch's canon
McClellan discusses the late addition of the flood to Genesis, the Ethiopian Bible's origins and why 1 Enoch fell out of favor.
1:53:27
The development of hell
McClellan outlines three New Testament views of post-mortem punishment and argues the universal threat of hell was a later development.
2:00:59
Intuitive cognition and bias
Using the Cornsweet illusion, phantom limbs and Haidt's work, McClellan explains how intuitive cognition shapes perception and reasoning.
2:11:04
Private faith, the prophetic critique and social systems
McClellan explains keeping his faith private, discusses the prophetic critique of performative piety, and the pair discuss inner cities, walkability and politics.
2:28:32
Religion in schools, statues and books
They criticize state religious instruction, discuss Confederate statues, and McClellan presents his book and upcoming project.

Key points

What was said, by whom, with the exact words. Timestamps jump to the moment.

Dan McClellan
McClellan says most scholars read the Kuntillet Ajrud inscription and drawing as depicting the God of Israel and his wife Asherah.
“the majority of scholars agree this is probably intended to reflect the interpretation of these two deities as the God of Israel and God's wife, Asherah”
Listen from 14:20 · Kuntillet Ajrud inscriptions
Joe Rogan
Rogan says he believes religious texts are neither wholly fictional nor wholly literal.
“I don't think all of it is fiction, but I don't think all of it is literal”
Listen from 16:33
Linked moment · 26:00Skip to 26:00 using a listen link in the info box.
Dan McClellan
McClellan argues the Bible never uses the phrase "word of God" to refer to written scripture.
“That phrase is never used anywhere in the Bible to refer to texts specifically as the texts that are in circulation”
Listen from 26:00
Dan McClellan
McClellan states that scholars widely agree several letters attributed to Paul, including the pastoral epistles, were not written by him.
“scholars are in pretty widespread agreement that there are several of those texts that weren't written by Paul”
Listen from 27:59 · Pauline epistles
Dan McClellan
McClellan reports that many scholars see the Tower of Babel story as reflecting the long-unfinished Etemenanki tower near Babylon.
“the story of this tower that was supposed to be built to heaven that was left unfinished is a reflection of the unfinished tower of Etemenanki”
Listen from 37:05 · Book of Genesis
Dan McClellan
McClellan says that apart from Korean Hangul, virtually every alphabet descends from the Phoenician script.
“apart from Hangul, which is the Korean alphabet, I think virtually every other alphabet on earth is descended from the Phoenician”
Listen from 43:06 · History of the alphabet
Dan McClellan
McClellan argues that the 1 Enoch account of fallen angels was probably the dominant explanation for evil before the New Testament was written.
“I think that up until the New Testament was written, that was probably the dominant tradition about where evil came from”
Listen from 1:17:32 · Book of Enoch
Dan McClellan
McClellan explains that around 16 New Testament passages found in the King James Version are omitted from most modern translations as later additions.
“There are about 16 passages in the New Testament that have been taken out”
Listen from 1:21:54 · Textual criticism of the New Testament
Dan McClellan
McClellan says residue tests on an incense altar at the Arad temple show cannabis was used in ancient Israelite worship.
“And one of them had three different kinds of cannabis on it. So we know for a fact they were using cannabis in their worship practices in ancient Israel”
Listen from 1:34:19 · Tel Arad temple
Dan McClellan
McClellan says John Allegro's etymological links between Sumerian and biblical terms are rejected by linguists.
“the connections that are made are just not considered plausible by linguists today”
Listen from 1:37:46 · The Sacred Mushroom and the Cross
Dan McClellan
McClellan says many scholars think Genesis once circulated without a flood story.
“a lot of scholars think that Genesis actually was circulating in a version that didn't have a flood story”
Listen from 1:41:38 · Book of Genesis
Dan McClellan
McClellan argues the Ethiopian manuscripts are of little value for reconstructing the earliest biblical text, though valuable for Ethiopian Christian history.
“The earliest possible Bible, the Ethiopian manuscripts are of very little value”
Listen from 1:47:27 · Ethiopian Bible
Dan McClellan
McClellan says the idea that non-followers of Jesus burn in hell forever is never stated in the Bible but is an interpretation.
“That's not something that's ever stated anywhere in the Bible”
Listen from 1:56:05 · Hell in Christianity
Dan McClellan
McClellan argues hell first developed as assurance that oppressive empires would be punished, before becoming a threat applied to everyone.
“hell probably initially developed as a way to feel like God's justice is going to have its day on the truly wicked people”
Listen from 1:56:32 · Hell in Christianity
Dan McClellan
McClellan explains he keeps his personal faith private to separate it from his professional public work.
“I don't talk publicly about my own personal faith just because I try to keep it compartmentalized from what I'm doing professionally”
Listen from 2:11:27
Joe Rogan
Rogan argues that improving opportunity, education and safety in poor areas is the best way to strengthen America.
“if you want to make America great again, what's the best way? Well, less losers”
Listen from 2:21:25
Dan McClellan
McClellan recounts running twice for the Utah legislature in a conservative district and narrowing large deficits.
“I think I took around 16 points off of both of them”
Listen from 2:26:09
Joe Rogan
Rogan argues that the freedom championed by the political right should include freedom from religious indoctrination in schools.
“freedom is supposed to be one of the things that the right in particular is supposed to hold dear”
Listen from 2:29:10 · Christian nationalism
Dan McClellan
McClellan argues that conversions resulting from state-sponsored religious instruction are not desirable.
“if people are indoctrinated and do adopt Christianity as a result of that, that's not really a desirable conversion in my mind”
Listen from 2:30:43 · Christian nationalism
Dan McClellan
McClellan states that early-20th-century Confederate statues were explicitly intended to intimidate Black residents.
“we know explicitly the goal was to terrorize the black population”
Listen from 2:31:23 · Confederate monuments
Dan McClellan Prediction · due Mar 2028
McClellan predicts his next book, on how the biblical God changes across the Bible, will be published at the beginning of 2028.
“But hopefully it should be out the beginning of 2028”
Listen from 2:33:50

People

In the conversation

Joe RoganAmerican comedian and host of The Joe Rogan Experience
Dan McClellanBiblical scholar, author of The Bible Says So and co-host of the Data Over Dogma podcast

Discussed

Joel McHaleAmerican actor and comedian, friend of McClellan
Paul the ApostleEarly Christian missionary and organizer credited by Diamond with spreading Christianity
Sargon of AkkadAncient Mesopotamian king whose birth legend parallels Moses
Eric H. ClineArchaeologist, author of 1177 B.C.: The Year Civilization Collapsed
Ara NorenzayanPsychologist, author of Big Gods
John Marco AllegroDead Sea Scrolls scholar and author of The Sacred Mushroom and the Cross
TertullianEarly Christian writer who defended 1 Enoch
V. S. RamachandranNeuroscientist known for mirror-box therapy for phantom limb pain
Jonathan HaidtAmerican social psychologist, professor at NYU Stern School of Business, and author of The Anxious Generation
Lindsay ClancyMassachusetts mother whose criminal case divided public opinion
James TalaricoDemocratic Senate nominee in Texas
Alan WattsBritish philosopher cited on humans being both actors and audience
Candida MossNew Testament scholar who has written on the development of hell
Charlie KirkAmerican conservative activist and podcast host assassinated in September 2025

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From the publisher

Dan McClellan, PhD, is a biblical scholar, author, and co-host of the "Data Over Dogma" podcast.www.youtube.com/@dataoverdogmawww.youtube.com/@maklelanhttps://static.macmillan.com/static/smp/bible-says-so-9781250347466/www.maklelan.org Perplexity: Download the app or ask Perplexity anything at https://pplx.ai/rogan. Pre-order and get campaign early access! Get a free welcome kit with your first subscription of AG1 at https://drinkag1.com/joerogan Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Summary, chapters and key points were generated from the episode transcript on October 8, 2026. Quotes are checked word for word against the transcript.

Categories: Religion·Christianity·History