#2578 - Calley Means

Episode of The Joe Rogan Experience · November 6, 2026 · 2 h 25 min

Calley Means tells Joe Rogan why he resigned from the Trump administration, alleging lobbyist-driven obstruction of MAHA health policies on glyphosate, vaping, kratom and food.

Summary

Calley Means, who had recently resigned as a senior advisor leading Make America Healthy Again (MAHA) implementation, told Joe Rogan that a small group around White House chief of staff Susie Wiles — including James Blair, Tony Fabrizio, Walker Barrett and Richard Walters — had centralized policy control and, in his view, subordinated voter priorities to special-interest money and a midterm strategy focused on redistricting. He pointed to lobbying firms such as Ballard Partners and firms employing relatives of senior officials whose revenues rose sharply.

Means described several case studies: an executive order framing glyphosate as a national security matter and a Justice Department brief urging the Supreme Court to take a case that ended in liability protection for pesticide makers, which he said President Trump called a terrible idea when told of it; White House pressure to ease approval of fruit-flavored vapes; the re-review and approval of Moderna's mRNA flu vaccine after Marty Makary's firing; a 20-fold relaxation of limits on the kratom compound 7-OH; the blocking of a David Kessler sugar petition initiative; the waiving of a required Pfizer COVID vaccine study; and the delay of an ultra-processed food definition and school meal reforms, which he cited as his last straw.

Means argued the problem was bipartisan and structural, calling for a simple constitutional amendment on money in politics, criticizing the 17th Amendment and super PACs, and saying a president must run on reform as a mandate. Rogan expressed shock at the extent of the influence and shared his own experiences with kratom and his hopes for psychedelic therapy. Means said he remained optimistic that Trump could change staff and salvage his presidency.

Chapters

0:03
Resignation from the administration
Means explains why he left his MAHA role and contrasts early optimism with what he saw inside.
4:08
Susie Wiles and the inner circle
Means profiles Wiles, Blair, Fabrizio and others, and the lobbying firms tied to them.
13:55
Midterm strategy over policy
Means says redistricting and fundraising drove decisions while MAHA priorities were dismissed.
21:49
Glyphosate executive order and Supreme Court case
Means recounts the national-security glyphosate order and the DOJ brief leading to liability protection.
49:33
Structural reform and money in politics
Means argues for a constitutional amendment, criticizes the 17th Amendment and super PACs.
1:01:39
Revolving door and lobbyist access
Means describes pharma CEO dinners with staffers and the NSC staffer who later led the Soybean Board.
1:13:36
Advice to Trump and psychedelics
Means says Trump should clear his house and discusses progress on psychedelic policy and SNAP soda bans.
1:29:44
Fruit-flavored vapes
Means says easing fruit-flavored vape approval was the White House's top HHS priority.
1:36:18
Moderna mRNA flu vaccine
Means describes Makary's pushback on the vaccine, his firing and the subsequent approval.
1:43:52
Kratom and 7-OH
Rogan shares kratom experiences and Means says lobbying led to a 20x relaxation of limits.
1:54:36
Kessler sugar petition and midterm fallout
Means says Wiles blocked a sugar initiative for industry money, and they discuss the midterm loss.
2:05:46
COVID study, ultra-processed food and the last straw
Means discusses the waived Pfizer study and the stalled UPF definition and school meal rules that prompted his exit.

Key points

What was said, by whom, with the exact words. Timestamps jump to the moment.

Calley Means
Means says a concentrated group within the Trump administration worked against what voters wanted, in many cases to enrich their families.
“there is a very concentrated group of people in the Trump administration. that are antagonistic to what people voted for”
Listen from 0:17 · Lobbying in the United States
Calley Means
Means argues Susie Wiles exercises unprecedented control over every policy decision in the White House.
“Susie Wiles is the most powerful chief of staff in modern American history and she has taken a stranglehold on any policy decision”
Listen from 4:37 · Lobbying in the United States
Linked moment · 5:20Skip to 5:20 using a listen link in the info box.
Calley Means
Means says pollster Tony Fabrizio advised against MAHA policies like school lunch reform while being paid by Pepsi and drug makers.
“He takes money from Pepsi. He takes money from pharmaceutical companies”
Listen from 5:20 · Make America Healthy Again
Calley Means
Means says Ballard Partners, Wiles's former firm, became the top-earning lobbying firm because hiring it secured access to her.
“Ballard Partners has become the highest revenue generating lobbying firm in history”
Listen from 7:53 · Ballard Partners
Calley Means
Means says the glyphosate executive order's national security rationale was not shared by military leadership.
“Nobody in military leadership sees this as a national security issue”
Listen from 28:33 · Glyphosate
Calley Means
Means says the Supreme Court granted glyphosate liability protection only because the administration's DOJ urged it to take the case.
“The Supreme Court ended up siding with the case, which they wouldn't have taken without that brief and urging from the administration to take it”
Listen from 29:01 · Glyphosate
Calley Means
Means argues the issue was not a ban but preserving legal recourse, which he sees as a proper free-market mechanism.
“It was about whether people could sue if they get cancer. And in a free market, to me, that's a perfect dynamic”
Listen from 32:50 · Glyphosate
Calley Means
Means recounts that Trump, upon learning of the glyphosate ruling, called it a terrible idea and was unaware of the DOJ's role.
“President Trump reacted to the Supreme Court decision saying, it's a terrible idea. How the hell did this happen?”
Listen from 35:42 · Glyphosate
Calley Means
Means argues direct election of senators was a mistake because senators now spend most of their time fundraising.
“During the populist era, the 17th Amendment passed, which did direct election. I think that's a disaster”
Listen from 49:43 · Seventeenth Amendment to the United States Constitution
Calley Means
Means argues structural reform on money in politics requires a president to run on a one-page amendment as a central mandate.
“You have to have the president run on it as a mandate, as a central campaign promise”
Listen from 53:17 · Campaign finance in the United States
Joe Rogan
Rogan says he believes psychedelic therapy will transform society and help with addiction.
“I think it's going to change mankind. I really genuinely believe this”
Listen from 1:22:21 · Psychedelic therapy
Calley Means
Means criticizes taxpayer-funded soda purchases through SNAP, which the administration removed in about 30 states.
“Coca-Cola is making $8 billion or whatever it is from taxpayer money to give soda to kids”
Listen from 1:26:41 · Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program
Calley Means
Means says easing the pathway for fruit-flavored vapes was James Blair's top HHS priority.
“the single most prioritized issue at HHS among any health issue for James Blair, who really has a stranglehold on policy”
Listen from 1:30:11 · Electronic cigarette
Calley Means
Means says Moderna's mRNA flu vaccine showed negligible benefit and significant side effects in trials, yet was later approved.
“It had a 0.8% absolute risk reduction, which was almost nothing, and a significant side effect profile based on the clinical trials”
Listen from 1:37:31 · Moderna mRNA flu vaccine
Joe Rogan
Rogan says he once believed kratom was a safe alternative for opiate addicts but now thinks it is addictive for some people.
“I thought it was like a safe alternative to people that were addicted to opiates”
Listen from 1:46:29 · Kratom
Calley Means
Means says lobbying led to a 20-fold loosening of the 7-OH limit Makary set, which he believes will cause deaths.
“you have this 20x increase into what Marty solidified, which is going to cause death”
Listen from 1:53:43 · Kratom
Calley Means
Means says Wiles blocked an FDA sugar initiative with David Kessler because she wanted sugar industry money for the midterms.
“And that's where Susie told me, we can't do that. I need the sugar industry money”
Listen from 1:56:25 · Campaign finance in the United States
Calley Means
Means believes Pfizer avoided a required COVID vaccine study because it would have shown unfavorable results.
“my opinion is they didn't do the study because they knew it would show bad things”
Listen from 2:06:55
Calley Means
Means calls the Affordable Care Act the worst law in American history, saying it was written by insurers and exploded costs.
“Worst law in American history. Exploded healthcare costs. We spend three times more than any other country today on healthcare”
Listen from 2:09:04 · Affordable Care Act
Calley Means
Means highlights the gap in ultra-processed food consumption between American and Spanish children as a key public health problem.
“70% of a child's diet in the US is ultra-processed food, and it's 10% in Spain”
Listen from 2:13:07 · Ultra-processed food

People

In the conversation

Joe RoganAmerican comedian and host of The Joe Rogan Experience
Calley MeansHealth entrepreneur who Rogan said had just left the White House

Discussed

Susie WilesWhite House chief of staff
Donald TrumpPresident of the United States whose conduct of the Iran war is the episode's main subject
Robert F. Kennedy Jr.Health secretary whose appointment Jesse Kelly cited as coalition-building
James BlairTrump White House political director leading the GOP midterm operation
Tony FabrizioTrump's chief pollster
Heidi OvertonWhite House health policy official and FDA commissioner nominee
Marty MakaryFormer FDA commissioner
Chris LaCivitaTrump campaign manager and political consultant
Richard WaltersDeputy to Susie Wiles and former lobbying-firm fundraiser
Courtney KnuppFormer National Security Council staffer who became CEO of the United Soybean Board
Dave RicksCEO of Eli Lilly
David KesslerFDA commissioner under Bill Clinton who took on the tobacco industry
Vinay PrasadFormer FDA vaccine official
John ThuneSenate Republican leader mentioned in relation to shutdown negotiations

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From the publisher

Calley Means is a health advocate, author, and former senior advisor to the United States Department of Health and Human Services. He is also a co-founder of Truemed and co-author of the book "Good Energy" with his sister Casey Means, MD.www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/727184/good-energy-by-casey-means-md-and-calley-means/www.calleymeans.com Perplexity: Download the app or ask Perplexity anything at https://pplx.ai/rogan. Don’t miss out on all the action this week at DraftKings! Download the DraftKings app today! Sign-up using https://dkng.co/rogan or through my promo code ROGAN. onX Hunt - Use code JRE for 20% off your membership Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Summary, chapters and key points were generated from the episode transcript on November 7, 2026. Quotes are checked word for word against the transcript.

Categories: Politics·Health & Fitness·Nutrition