Trump FIRES Bondi, CIA's "MK Ultra" History, and "Two Weeks" Talking Point, with John Kiriakou, Sean Davis, and Sohrab Ahmari | Ep. 1287

Episode of The Megyn Kelly Show · April 2, 2026 · 1 h 40 min

Megyn Kelly, Sean Davis and Sohrab Ahmari dissect Pam Bondi's firing and the Iran war, then John Kiriakou discusses CIA secrets and MKUltra.

Summary

Megyn Kelly opened with reports that President Trump was preparing to fire Attorney General Pam Bondi and was privately polling advisers about replacing Director of National Intelligence Tulsi Gabbard. Sean Davis argued that Trump had chosen Bondi for loyalty rather than competence after his experiences with Jeff Sessions and Bill Barr, and that her handling of the Epstein files — including the White House binder stunt for social media influencers — had done extreme damage to Trump's standing with the voters who elected him in 2024. Sohrab Ahmari said the blame for limited Epstein disclosure ultimately lay with Trump, and separately faulted the Bondi Justice Department for sidelining antitrust chief Gail Slater in what he called a turn toward crony capitalism. During the show, Kelly read Trump's Truth Social post announcing Bondi's departure and Todd Blanche's appointment as acting attorney general.

The panel also discussed the Iran war. Ahmari argued that the "restraint" camp had won the staffing battles inside the administration but lost the major policy call to outside hawks such as Mark Levin, Lindsey Graham, Tom Cotton and donor Miriam Adelson, and warned about possible ground deployments at Kharg Island or special-forces raids to retrieve enriched uranium. He also highlighted leaked remarks in which Trump said the federal government could not fund daycare, Medicaid and Medicare because "we're fighting wars," calling it a reversal of Trump's 2016–2024 promises on entitlements. Davis said he was encouraged by Trump's address, reading it as a signal that the president understood the war was unpopular and needed to be wrapped up.

In the second half, former CIA officer John Kiriakou described being recruited by a George Washington University professor who was an undercover CIA officer, serving as Saddam Hussein's classified biographer, and later working counterterrorism in Greece and Pakistan. He recounted the collapse of his first marriage while under threat from the Greek terror group 17 November, and said the CIA deliberately hires people with "sociopathic tendencies." He detailed the origins of MKUltra, including LSD experiments in San Francisco and France and the destruction of most program records in 1975, and argued that congressional oversight of the intelligence agencies has been absent since the early 1980s.

Kiriakou also said Israeli intelligence officers routinely tried to recruit CIA personnel and that the FBI had identified 187 undeclared Israeli intelligence officers in the United States, and criticized AIPAC's influence over Congress and the silence of Democrats on the Iran war. He called Trump's threat to strike Iran's electrical grid a war crime and said Israeli claims about an Iranian nuclear weapons program were fabricated.

Chapters

  1. 0:00

    Reports Trump Will Fire Bondi and Poll on Gabbard

    Kelly outlined New York Times, Semafor and Guardian reports that Trump was preparing to replace Pam Bondi and was polling advisers on Tulsi Gabbard.

  2. 3:55

    Why Bondi Failed: Loyalty vs. Competence

    Davis traced Trump's attorney general choices from Sessions to Barr to Bondi, and Ahmari faulted the DOJ's antitrust record under her.

  3. 9:54

    The Epstein Files as Political Wound

    The panel reviewed Bondi's Fox News claim about the client list, the influencer binder stunt, and Trump's own dismissive comments on Epstein.

  4. 16:12

    The Daily Mail Report and Cabinet Sycophancy

    Kelly read a report that Bondi begged Trump not to fire her, and Ahmari and Kelly criticized the flattery in Trump cabinet meetings.

  5. 24:47

    Tulsi Gabbard, Joe Kent and the Restraint Camp

    Ahmari described how anti-interventionists staffed the administration but lost the Iran decision to outside hawks, while Davis defended Trump's frustration with staff who make themselves the story.

  6. 29:55

    Entitlements, the Coalition and Trump's Iran Address

    Ahmari analyzed leaked Trump remarks on daycare and Medicaid as a reversal on entitlements, and the panel debated whether the address signaled withdrawal or escalation.

  7. 44:03

    John Kiriakou on the Iran War and Israeli Intelligence

    Kiriakou said Trump's threat to hit Iran's electrical grid was a war crime and that Israel pulled the U.S. into a war based on false nuclear claims.

  8. 53:51

    Recruitment into the CIA and Life as an Officer

    Kiriakou recounted being recruited by an undercover professor, profiling Saddam Hussein, and the strains covert work placed on his marriage.

  9. 1:04:30

    CIA Powers, Butler and the Charlie Kirk Case

    Kiriakou discussed targeted killings of American citizens, domestic file-keeping, and questioned the FBI's role in the Charlie Kirk investigation.

  10. 1:10:33

    MKUltra and the Limits of Oversight

    Kiriakou detailed MKUltra's origins, LSD experiments and document destruction, and argued congressional oversight has been absent since the 1980s.

  11. 1:17:55

    Vault 7, Sleeper Agents and The Americans

    Kiriakou described CIA capabilities revealed by WikiLeaks and said Russian sleeper agents remain active, citing an arrest in his Arlington neighborhood.

  12. 1:24:43

    Bondi's Firing Confirmed On Air

    Kelly read Trump's post announcing Bondi's exit and Todd Blanche as acting attorney general, and Kiriakou offered his view of her tenure.

  13. 1:26:42

    AIPAC, Congress and Personal Security

    Kiriakou described Israeli recruitment attempts, AIPAC pressure on lawmakers, and his own precautions including a bulletproof vest.

Key points

What was said, by whom, with the exact words. Timestamps jump to the moment.

  • Sean Davis

    Davis argues Trump chose Bondi for loyalty after trying competence without loyalty in Bill Barr, but she proved incompetent.

    “He tried the competent but not loyal thing with Barr. This time he wanted someone who was loyal. I think, unfortunately, she was very loyal”

    Listen from 5:16 · United States Department of Justice

  • Sohrab Ahmari

    Ahmari argues Bondi was executing Trump's own preference for partial Epstein disclosure, so blame lies with Trump.

    “the fact is that I think Pam Bondi is basically executing what the president wanted to do. Some disclosure, but not the full”

    Listen from 7:20 · Jeffrey Epstein

  • Sohrab Ahmari

    Ahmari contends the Bondi DOJ stripped antitrust chief Gail Slater of power, turning populist promises into crony capitalism.

    “what looks like populism is on the campaign trail. And then under Bondi, it cashed out as kind of crony capitalism”

    Listen from 7:58 · United States Department of Justice

  • Sean Davis

    Davis says Bondi ignored advice to appoint a special counsel for the Epstein files because she wanted the publicity.

    “she ignored everyone who told her hey by the way you should probably just get a special counsel to go in and review these items and slowly release them”

    Listen from 12:25 · Jeffrey Epstein

  • Sean Davis

    Davis argues the Epstein case functioned as a proxy for public belief in an unaccountable shadow government.

    “the Epstein case was not just about Jeffrey Epstein. It was a proxy for a shadow government, a bunch of corrupt people who could lead the nation around by the nose”

    Listen from 12:25 · Jeffrey Epstein

  • Sohrab Ahmari

    Ahmari predicts Bondi will spend years leaking against Trump and secure a book deal about the administration.

    “there's going to be three years of Bondi serving as a source to the press, getting a book deal, what I saw up close”

    Listen from 18:57 · United States Department of Justice

  • Megyn Kelly

    Kelly says she believes Bondi's removal was driven by the absence of indictments against Trump's political adversaries rather than the reported Swalwell tip-off.

    “she's not bringing indictments against the people who tried to put him in prison and bring down his first presidency”

    Listen from 20:06 · United States Department of Justice

  • Sean Davis

    Davis argues the administration's second major misstep was accommodating what he calls a judicial insurrection by district judges.

    “his administration had a fairly significant strategic misstep in how it was handling what I call the judicial insurrection”

    Listen from 21:00 · United States Department of Justice

  • Sohrab Ahmari

    Ahmari argues the restraint camp won staffing battles but outside hawks drove the decision to attack Iran.

    “Those people won many of the staffing battle inside the administration, meaning they got these jobs up and down the Pentagon, the intelligence community and so on”

    Listen from 25:25 · United States war with Iran

  • Sean Davis

    Davis says staffers who cannot implement a president's policy should quit quietly rather than make a public spectacle.

    “I personally find it distasteful to see people do the big public spectacle, here's why I'm quitting. I think you have a responsibility to quietly quit”

    Listen from 28:04 · United States war with Iran

  • Sohrab Ahmari

    Ahmari argues Trump's leaked comments on daycare and Medicaid reverse his 2016–2024 pledge not to touch entitlements.

    “that is a big departure from the Trump of 2016, from the Trump of 2020 and the Trump of 2024. The whole thing with Trump was he repeatedly said, I am not going to touch your entitlements”

    Listen from 32:46 · Medicaid

  • Sohrab Ahmari

    Ahmari says the Iran war will cost at least $200 billion, the amount being requested from Congress.

    “the war I just launched in Iran, which at a minimum is going to cost $200 billion, which is what is being asked for from Congress”

    Listen from 32:46 · United States war with Iran

  • Sean Davis

    Davis says he read Trump's address as an admission the war is unpopular and needs to be wrapped up.

    “The overall vibe and impression I got from that speech last night was a president who understood that it's a drag on him, it needs to be wrapped up, and it's time to move on”

    Listen from 35:47 · United States war with Iran

  • Sohrab Ahmari

    Ahmari warns that ground operations at Kharg Island or special-forces raids for enriched uranium would be disastrous, and that fully defeating Iran would require at least 500,000 troops.

    “the only way to do the really big thing of, quote unquote, defeating Iran is to do an invasion that takes 500,000 troops at a minimum”

    Listen from 38:24 · United States war with Iran

  • John Kiriakou

    Kiriakou says Trump's televised threat to attack Iran's electrical grid amounted to announcing a war crime.

    “the president threatened again to attack Iran's infrastructure, specifically its electrical grid. And that is quite literally a war crime”

    Listen from 47:31 · United States war with Iran

  • John Kiriakou

    Kiriakou claims Israel had a vested interest in misleading the United States into fighting Iran on its behalf.

    “I think that the Israelis had a vested interest in lying to us and pulling us into this war to do their dirty work for them”

    Listen from 48:06 · United States war with Iran

  • John Kiriakou

    Kiriakou says two national intelligence estimates in the past 20 years concluded Iran had no nuclear weapons program.

    “The CIA in the last 20 years has written two national intelligence estimates. Now, this is a sense of the entire intelligence community concluding both times that the Iranians did not have a nuclear weapons program”

    Listen from 50:45 · United States war with Iran

  • Linked moment · 53:51Skip to 53:51 using a listen link in the info box.

    John Kiriakou

    Kiriakou recounts being recruited into the CIA by a George Washington University professor who was an undercover officer.

    “I'm not really a professor here. I'm a CIA officer undercover as a professor here. I'm looking for people who might fit into the CIA's culture”

    Listen from 55:40 · Central Intelligence Agency

  • John Kiriakou

    Kiriakou says CIA work destroyed his first marriage and that multiple colleagues had been married four or five times.

    “And that's just not conducive to a smooth marriage”

    Listen from 57:53 · Central Intelligence Agency

  • John Kiriakou

    Kiriakou argues that the killing of Anwar al-Awlaki and his relatives showed the U.S. abandoning its status as a nation of laws.

    “We just decided we didn't like his politics. And so we blew him up”

    Listen from 1:05:55 · Central Intelligence Agency

  • John Kiriakou

    Kiriakou questions why the FBI is leading the Charlie Kirk investigation rather than Utah state police.

    “This is a state police case for the Utah State Police. Why in the world is the FBI calling the shots?”

    Listen from 1:08:24 · Assassination of Charlie Kirk

  • John Kiriakou

    Kiriakou says only 15% of MKUltra documents survive because the CIA director ordered their destruction in 1975 despite a congressional order.

    “That's why what we have today is only 15% of the MKUltra documents. Everything else was destroyed in 1975”

    Listen from 1:13:27 · Project MKUltra

  • John Kiriakou

    Kiriakou argues robust congressional oversight of intelligence agencies has been absent since the early 1980s because members fear the agencies.

    “the only way to tell the difference is through robust congressional oversight, something that we have not had since the early 1980s”

    Listen from 1:16:30 · Federal Bureau of Investigation

  • John Kiriakou

    Kiriakou says WikiLeaks' Vault 7 disclosures showed the CIA can remotely control cars and turn smart TVs into microphones.

    “the CIA can remotely take over your car”

    Listen from 1:20:04 · Vault 7

  • John Kiriakou

    Kiriakou says a CIA security briefing stated the FBI had identified 187 undeclared Israeli intelligence officers operating in the United States.

    “the FBI has been able to identify 187 other undeclared Israeli intelligence officers spread out all across America, working to steal secrets from American defense contractors”

    Listen from 1:30:10 · American Israel Public Affairs Committee

  • John Kiriakou

    Kiriakou says the CIA deliberately hires people with sociopathic tendencies who will work in legal and ethical gray areas.

    “The CIA actively seeks to hire people who have sociopathic tendencies, not sociopaths”

    Listen from 1:35:57 · Central Intelligence Agency

People

In the conversation

Discussed

  • Pam BondiU.S. Attorney General reported fired during the episode
  • Donald TrumpPresident of the United States whose conduct of the Iran war is the episode's main subject
  • Tulsi GabbardDirector of National Intelligence
  • Joe KentFormer U.S. official who resigned and disputed stated motives for the Iran conflict
  • Lee ZeldinEPA Administrator floated as a possible attorney general replacement
  • Todd BlancheDeputy Attorney General named acting Attorney General
  • Gail SlaterFormer head of the DOJ antitrust division
  • Jeff SessionsFormer U.S. Attorney General under whom the DOJ suit against Alabama proceeded
  • Bill BarrTrump's second attorney general in his first term
  • Mark LevinConservative radio host who pressed for strikes on Iran
  • Lindsey GrahamU.S. Senator named by Kelly as an advocate for the Iran war
  • Miriam AdelsonIsrael-first megadonor said to own an Israeli newspaper that ran a hit piece on Vance
  • Benjamin NetanyahuPrime Minister of Israel
  • Eric SwalwellDemocratic U.S. Representative and candidate for governor of California
  • Cory BookerDemocratic senator from New Jersey
  • John BrennanFormer CIA director
  • Gerald PostPsychiatrist and CIA officer who recruited Kiriakou
  • Joe WeisbergFormer CIA officer and creator of the TV series The Americans
  • Anwar al-AwlakiAmerican citizen killed in a U.S. drone strike
  • James Jesus AngletonLongtime CIA counterintelligence chief
  • Saddam HusseinFormer Iraqi leader deposed in the 2003 U.S. invasion
  • Letitia JamesNew York attorney general cited as another target of federal prosecution
  • James ComeyFormer FBI director cited as another target of unusual federal prosecution
  • Jonathan PollardAmerican convicted of spying for Israel

Topics

More from The Megyn Kelly Show

From the publisher

Megyn Kelly is joined by Sean Davis, CEO of The Federalist, and Sohrab Ahmari, U.S. Editor of UnHerd, to discuss reports that President Trump is about to fire Attorney General Pam Bondi, Bondi's challenges in handling the Epstein Files, Trump's reported frustration with the lack of prosecutions from the DOJ, reports Trump is considering firing DNI Tulsi Gabbard over her position on Iran, why Megyn hopes Gabbard doesn't leave, the implications for the coalition Trump built in 2024 if Gabbard leaves, and more. Then John Kiriakou, former CIA counterterrorism officer, joins to discuss the “two to three weeks” talking point that President Trump and Lindsey Graham are pushing about the Iran war, what really happens next with the war, the CIA’s “MK Ultra” origin story, the secrets of the CIA and FBI, why conspiracy theories are growing in a post-COVID world, how Israel tries to recruit CIA operatives, the influence Israel has on both Democrats and the GOP in Congress, how he got recruited into the CIA, the challenges of balancing marriages and relationships in covert CIA roles, and more. Davis- https://thefederalist.com/ Ahmari- https://unherd.com/ Kiriakou- https://johnkiriakou.com/ Relief Factor: Break up with pain—Relief Factor targets inflammation so you can move better and feel better; try the 3-Week QuickStart for just $19.95 at https://ReliefFactor.com or call 800-4-RELIEF. Quo: Make this the season where no opportunity slips away. Try QUO for free PLUS get 20% off your first 6 months when you go to https://www.Quo.com/MK Cozy Earth: Visit https://www.CozyEarth.com/MEGYN & Use code MEGYN for up to 20% off PureTalk: Save on wireless with PureTalk visit https://PureTalk.com/MEGYNKELLY

Summary, chapters and key points were generated from the episode transcript on September 27, 2026. Quotes are checked word for word against the transcript.

Categories: Politics·News Commentary·Government