Deep State Rebels v. Trump (with Michael Lewis)

Episode of Pod Save America · October 4, 2026 · 1 h 4 min

Jon Lovett interviews author Michael Lewis about his book Blockers, on federal employees who resisted DOGE and the Trump administration's reshaping of government.

Summary

Jon Lovett spoke with Michael Lewis about his book "Blockers: Rebels in the Deep State," which profiles federal employees who resisted the Department of Government Efficiency (DOGE) during Donald Trump's second term. Lewis opened with the story of Colin O'Brien, security chief of the U.S. Institute of Peace, who physically tried to keep DOGE out of the institute's building, including locking intruders in a room, before the administration secured the building with the help of a turned private security firm and the D.C. police. Lewis contrasted the indifference and ignorance of Trump's first term with the aggressive extension of power in the second, and called the idea that a deep state undermined Trump "insane."

The two discussed Howard Lutnick's leadership of the Commerce Department and its effect on the National Institute of Standards and Technology, told through fire scientist Alex Maranghides, who pioneered research on wildland-urban interface fires and helped explain the World Trade Center collapse. Lewis described Lutnick requiring personal sign-off on expenses over $10,000 while rarely being in his office, which he said ground Maranghides's work to a halt and led him to leave. Lewis argued the private market handles public safety poorly and that mistrust of government lets critics distort its inner workings, while Lovett used the elimination of NIST's travel agent as an example of false savings.

Lewis argued that Elon Musk's promised $2 trillion in cuts was mathematically impossible and suggested DOGE's real effect was to traumatize the workforce and create preconditions for a presidential power grab. They discussed the IRS sharing undocumented immigrants' tax data with ICE, Trump's hostility to high-trust environments, Chesterton's fence, FDA inspector cuts, and Tim Curry of the Office of Personnel Management, who refused to sign off on mass for-cause firings of probationary workers. Lovett sketched a more competent alternative to DOGE and both criticized how agency heads are chosen.

In closing, they discussed former DOGE member Sahil Lavingia's work at the IRS and whether Democrats could seize the opening to rebuild government. Lewis said he keeps waiting for a candidate who will rethink how Americans govern themselves and argued Democrats lack a compelling narrative to counter Trump's.

Chapters

0:19
Colin O'Brien and the U.S. Institute of Peace
Lewis recounts how the institute's security chief tried to physically block DOGE from taking the building.
5:06
Trump's first term versus second term
Lewis contrasts the first administration's indifference with the second's aggressive extension of power and dismisses the deep state narrative.
15:23
Howard Lutnick, NIST and fire science
Lewis tells the story of NIST fire scientist Alex Maranghides and how Lutnick's management of Commerce drove him out.
26:32
False savings and the cycle of mistrust
Lovett and Lewis discuss the cut NIST travel agent, waste and fraud, and how cynicism drives out dedicated civil servants.
31:32
What DOGE was really for
Lewis argues the promised cuts were impossible and that DOGE created preconditions for a power grab.
37:10
Debt, the IRS and tax data
They discuss the growing debt, a gutted IRS, and the sharing of undocumented workers' tax data with ICE as an erosion of trust.
41:45
Chesterton's fence and public safety
Lovett invokes Chesterton's fence and Lewis links food contamination to FDA inspector cuts while explaining the book's frame.
46:04
Tim Curry and the civil service
They discuss the OPM official who refused to approve mass for-cause firings of probationary workers and DOGE's 'five things' email.
52:04
A better DOGE and choosing agency heads
Lovett imagines a competent reform effort and both criticize the lack of qualifications for leaders like Lutnick.
56:58
Rebuilding government and the Democratic opening
They discuss Mancur Olson, Sahil Lavingia at the IRS, and the need for a candidate with a narrative about rebuilding government.

Key points

What was said, by whom, with the exact words. Timestamps jump to the moment.

Michael Lewis
Lewis argues that Trump's first administration was defined by indifference to running the government.
“its signature was indifference and ignorance. Like he didn't care at all about running the government”
Listen from 3:51 · United States federal civil service
Michael Lewis
Lewis says the administration's seizure of the Institute of Peace was blatantly illegal but is moving slowly through the courts.
“So it was, I mean, it's blatantly illegal, but it's working its way through the courts slowly”
Listen from 5:06 · United States Institute of Peace
Michael Lewis
Lewis argues that because no violence occurred, the importance of who controlled armed security was overlooked.
“I think because no shots were fired, I think we ignore the importance of who has the guns”
Listen from 8:03 · United States Institute of Peace
Michael Lewis
Lewis contends the claim that a deep state undermined Trump's first term was baseless, since Trump arrived without policy plans.
“And so the idea that like there's this deep state that undermined him was insane”
Listen from 11:39 · Deep state conspiracy theory
Michael Lewis
Lewis relays Maranghides's warning that the U.S. East Coast is a tinderbox vulnerable after brief droughts.
“He said that all it takes is six weeks of dry and of no rain, and the east coast is waiting to go up”
Listen from 20:08 · Wildland–urban interface fires
Michael Lewis
Lewis says Maranghides warned that NIST's fire-science knowledge resides in only one person.
“And he says, like, that knowledge that we created, it's one person deep”
Listen from 22:35 · National Institute of Standards and Technology
Michael Lewis
Lewis argues the country has stopped asking what qualifications people need to run federal agencies.
“we stopped asking what qualifications should a person have to run one of these federal agencies?”
Listen from 22:39 · United States federal civil service
Michael Lewis
Lewis says Lutnick's requirement to personally approve expenses over $10,000 paralyzed Commerce operations because he was rarely there.
“It's just like anything over $10,000 I have to sign, which just shuts things down because he's not there to sign them”
Listen from 23:39 · United States Department of Commerce
Michael Lewis
Lewis argues the market performs poorly on public safety and government fills that role well.
“The market, especially with public safety stuff, the market is terrible. And the government does all this great stuff”
Listen from 23:46 · National Institute of Standards and Technology
Jon Lovett
Lovett argues that cutting NIST's travel agent may show savings on paper but makes government less efficient.
“But in the end result, the government is less efficient and less effective”
Listen from 28:05 · Government fraud and waste
Michael Lewis
Lewis acknowledges waste in the civil service but says internal fraud is unlikely because employees are closely monitored.
“There's not a lot of fraud because they get watched so close”
Listen from 29:23 · Government fraud and waste
Michael Lewis
Lewis suggests DOGE's real effect was to set up conditions for a presidential power grab rather than cut waste.
“What it really is were the preconditions for a big power grab”
Listen from 31:32 · Department of Government Efficiency
Michael Lewis
Lewis argues Musk's $2 trillion target was impossible because interest, defense and entitlements make up about 75% of the budget.
“So it's mathematically impossible to cut $2 trillion out of this last little slice he's attacking”
Listen from 32:02 · Department of Government Efficiency
Linked moment · 37:10Skip to 37:10 using a listen link in the info box.
Michael Lewis
Lewis says IRS tax data on undocumented workers was given to ICE and used to arrest people at their homes, undermining trust and tax compliance.
“We now know that they actually took this data and went and used it to grab people in their homes”
Listen from 39:32 · Internal Revenue Service
Michael Lewis
Lewis argues Trump instinctively seeks out and destroys trust because he operates better in low-trust environments.
“he's going to find where there's trust and try to destroy it and is it and he might not think quite this way”
Listen from 40:27
Michael Lewis
Lewis contends that Americans still trust the government in their behavior despite saying otherwise.
“People still basically trust the government, even if they say they don't”
Listen from 41:22
Michael Lewis
Lewis attributes a cyclospora lettuce contamination to reductions in FDA inspectors.
“In that case, I think you can trace it back to the reduction in the number of inspectors, of the FDA inspectors”
Listen from 43:31
Jon Lovett
Lovett agrees with Project 2025's critique that civil service performance ratings are implausibly high.
“the civil service is rated as being 99% effective and only 0.1% performing poorly”
Listen from 46:36 · Project 2025
Michael Lewis
Lewis says DOGE's mass for-cause firing of probationary workers was illegal.
“Now, it's actually against the law what they did because you're supposed to only fire these people for cause”
Listen from 47:25 · Office of Personnel Management
Jon Lovett
Lovett argues that DOGE's email asking workers what they did last week showed an inability to solve real management problems.
“that your only solution is to ask every single person what they did last week, you're so far gone from like actually being able to solve a problem”
Listen from 50:57 · Department of Government Efficiency
Jon Lovett
Lovett proposes that a competent reform effort would have worked department by department with agency heads.
“You can imagine a completely different version of Doge where there's a team and over a few weeks they go and they meet with department heads”
Listen from 53:26 · Department of Government Efficiency
Michael Lewis
Lewis says he is waiting for a political candidate who will campaign on rethinking how government works.
“I keep waiting for the candidate to arise who says we're going to rethink how we govern ourselves because a lot of it makes no sense”
Listen from 59:24 · United States federal civil service
Jon Lovett
Lovett says the political opening is for a leader who understands power yet cares about government's civic purpose.
“But actually respects and cares about the civic purpose of our government. And that to me is the opening that I see”
Listen from 1:00:12 · United States federal civil service
Michael Lewis
Lewis argues Trump's opponents lack a narrative and that his book aims to supply a true, constructive story about government.
“I've had this feeling that we're in this narrative war, that he has a story and the other side doesn't have a story”
Listen from 1:02:00 · Blockers: Rebels in the Deep State

People

In the conversation

Jon LovettCo-host of Pod Save America; diarization split of the same speaker during the economics segment
Michael LewisAmerican nonfiction author of Moneyball, The Big Short, The Fifth Risk and Blockers: Rebels in the Deep State

Discussed

Donald TrumpPresident of the United States whose conduct of the Iran war is the episode's main subject
Elon MuskEntrepreneur behind X, xAI and SpaceX, discussed in AI competition
Howard LutnickCantor Fitzgerald executive who was absent from the World Trade Center on 9/11
Colin O'BrienHead of security at the U.S. Institute of Peace
Alex MaranghidesNIST fire scientist who pioneered wildland-urban interface fire research
Tim CurryOffice of Personnel Management official profiled in Blockers
Sahil LavingiaTechnologist and former DOGE member who went to work at the IRS
Ed MartinU.S. pardon attorney
Chris ChristieFormer New Jersey governor who led Trump's first transition team
G. K. ChestertonEnglish Catholic writer quoted on heresy
Mancur OlsonEconomist, author of The Rise and Decline of Nations
Barry DillerMedia executive who ran Paramount and Fox

Topics

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Pod Save America · May 8, 2026 · 1 h 38 min
Jon Favreau and Dan Pfeiffer discuss the Iran war, Trump's taxpayer-funded ballroom, Vance versus Rubio, gerrymandering and Kash Patel; Jon Lovett interviews Tom Steyer.

From the publisher

Michael Lewis, the New York Times bestselling author of "Moneyball" and "The Big Short," stops by the studio to talk to Lovett about "Blockers: Rebels in the Deep State," his latest book on the government employees who stood up to Elon Musk and Donald Trump during the heyday of DOGE. Lovett and Lewis revisit the story of Colin O'Brien, the security chief who locked DOGE out of the U.S. Institute of Peace, and break down how Howard Lutnick's takeover of the Commerce Department reveals the inner workings of Trump's government. Then, Lewis shares what essential government employees told him about working under DOGE, why he thinks DOGE may have been created in the first place, and how the next Democratic candidate should make rebuilding the government a top message following DOGE's damage. Hate listening to ads? Become a Friends of the Pod subscriber for ad-free episodes of Pod Save America, Pod Save the World, Lovett or Leave It, Runaway Country, Offline with Jon Favreau, and more—plus exclusive content, including bonus episodes of Pod Save America. Subscribe now at crooked.com/friends , on Apple Podcasts, or through the Pod Save America YouTube channel. You can request a transcript by emailing transcripts@crooked.com . Include the podcast name, episode title, and air date. Please allow 48 hours for delivery.

Summary, chapters and key points were generated from the episode transcript on October 5, 2026. Quotes are checked word for word against the transcript.

Categories: Politics·Books·Government