The Mattering Effect: Success and Mattering Are Not the Same Thing - John R. Miles
Episode of Proven Podcast · October 10, 2026 · 1 h 6 min
Charles Schwartz talks with former Navy officer and tech executive John R. Miles about leadership, trust, self-regulation, and the six signals of mattering at work.
Summary
Charles Schwartz interviewed John R. Miles, a Naval Academy graduate who supported special operations teams and later led technology organizations at Dell, Lendlease and Lowe's, about leadership lessons that carry across military and corporate settings. Miles described serving as a direct support officer on ships including the USS Comte de Grasse, which had been sabotaged, and the USS Kidd, and said he earned trust by volunteering for any duty. He argued that leaders must set mission and boundaries, trust capable people, and never become the bottleneck.
Miles outlined his daily routine of gratitude, mindfulness, exercise and intention-setting, tying gratitude to his core values, and spoke about quitting alcohol three years earlier, which he said restored his sleep and energy. Schwartz framed this openness as strength and discussed men's vulnerability and military suicide.
The central case was Miles's arrival at Lowe's, where his inherited team ranked last in a company-wide engagement survey. He said he listened to rank-and-file employees before acting and found what he calls "systemic unmattering": people had stopped speaking up because nothing changed. He described "gardener leadership," defined autonomy as "authorship with clear guard rails" implemented through company-wide ITIL training, rewarded early bad news, audited time to cut governance, and practiced reciprocity through development, promotions and visibility. He presented six signals of mattering: meaning, autonomy, trust, time, energy and reciprocity. Schwartz added anecdotes about meeting rules, user feedback on software, and taking blame for his team. Miles closed by arguing that in the age of AI companies should ask what becomes more human, and promoted his book The Mattering Effect.
Chapters
- 0:00
Introduction and Miles's mission
Schwartz introduces Miles, who describes his path from the Navy to Fortune 50 tech and his focus on significance and belonging.
- 1:46
Supporting special operations
Miles explains his direct support officer role and the lesson that leaders must not become the bottleneck.
- 5:21
Earning trust on Navy ships
Miles recounts joining the sabotaged USS Comte de Grasse and the USS Kidd, volunteering for any duty, and learning mindfulness with SEAL units.
- 13:34
Self-regulation and daily practice
Miles details his routine of gratitude, mindfulness, exercise and intentions, tied to his core values.
- 20:38
Vulnerability and quitting alcohol
Miles describes his men's prayer group and giving up alcohol, and Schwartz discusses vulnerability among men.
- 26:14
Last place at Lowe's
Miles recounts learning his new Lowe's team ranked dead last in engagement and diagnosing systemic unmattering.
- 33:07
Gardener leadership and autonomy
Miles explains gardener leadership and autonomy as authorship within guardrails built through ITIL training.
- 44:28
The six signals of mattering
Miles lists meaning, autonomy, trust, time, energy and reciprocity as signals of whether people feel they matter.
- 46:23
Rebuilding trust
Miles describes rewarding early bad news and learning from a veteran employee, while Schwartz shares a software feedback story.
- 52:43
Time and meetings
Miles discusses auditing time and cutting governance; Schwartz shares tactics for shortening meetings.
- 57:13
Reciprocity
Miles explains giving back through development, promotions, visibility and personal connection.
- 1:03:42
AI and closing
Miles argues companies should ask what becomes more human with AI and shares where to find his work.
Key points
What was said, by whom, with the exact words. Timestamps jump to the moment.
- John R. Miles
Miles argues that leaders must set the mission and boundaries and then trust capable people, never becoming the bottleneck.
“the thing I learned very early on, and this has carried through my entire career, is the leader cannot become the bottleneck”
- John R. Miles
Miles recounts that he earned trust on Navy ships by volunteering himself and his team for any needed duty.
“I went in raising my hand saying I will do anything and my guys will do anything that needs to be done on the ship”
- John R. Miles
Miles describes a daily routine moving from gratitude to mindfulness to physical activity to setting intentions.
“I start with a gratitude practice, which leads to a mindfulness practice, which leads to physical activity, which then leads to very powerful intentions”
- John R. Miles
Miles says self-regulation is the foundation of his career success because leaders cannot regulate others without regulating themselves.
“Because if you don't regulate yourself, how are you going to regulate anyone else?”
- John R. Miles
Miles says he stopped drinking three years ago after trauma-related alcohol use, and that it greatly improved his sleep and energy.
“i have not consumed alcohol in three years”
- Charles Schwartz
Schwartz argues that men's openness about their struggles is a sign of strength rather than weakness.
“on the other side of absolute vulnerability is complete strength”
- John R. Miles
Miles recounts that the Lowe's team he inherited finished last in a company-wide engagement survey of roughly 350,000 associates.
“Lowe's had, I don't know, 350,000 associates across the company. My group that I was inheriting finished dead last”
- John R. Miles
Miles coined the term systemic unmattering for employees who stop speaking up after learning that it changes nothing.
“They stopped bringing forward ideas because they learn that speaking up doesn't change anything. And I have a term for this now. I call it systemic unmattering”
Linked moment · 34:02Skip to 34:02 using a listen link in the info box.
John R. MilesMiles prefers the term gardener leadership to servant leadership because leaders should create conditions for growth rather than force it.
“a gardener doesn't pull on a plant to make it grow. A gardener leader creates the conditions for growth”
- John R. Miles
Miles defines autonomy as authorship within guardrails and says he trained his whole organization in ITIL to give it a common language.
“Autonomy for me is authorship with clear guard rails. So what I discovered when I took over this group was we didn't have a common language”
- John R. Miles
Miles identifies six signals of mattering in organizations.
“Meaning, autonomy, which we've already touched upon, trust, time, energy, and reciprocity”
- John R. Miles
Miles argues that leaders should avoid penalizing those who surface problems, because early truth makes problems cheaper to solve.
“I did the exact opposite because I knew the earlier I knew the truth, the cheaper the problem would become to solve”
- John R. Miles
Miles contends that technology alone does not change people, and that change requires psychological safety.
“you can't throw technology or something in and expect it's going to change people. Like changing people is like 60% of the job”
- John R. Miles
Miles says leaders who call work strategically important but fill people's weeks with meetings send a contradictory signal.
“If you tell someone in the organization that their job is strategically important, but then consume their entire week in meetings, committees, status updates, and approvals”
- John R. Miles
Miles says he promoted overlooked internal employees before hiring from outside.
“I started looking at who had been passed over for opportunities that were hidden gems and I promoted them first”
- John R. Miles
Miles argues that companies adopting AI ask the wrong question by focusing on automation rather than on what becomes more human.
“So many companies are asking what jobs can we automate instead of asking what becomes more human when machines do more of the work”
People
In the conversation
- Charles SchwartzEntrepreneur and host of The Proven Podcast
- John R. MilesHost of the Passion Struck podcast and author of The Mattering Effect
Discussed
- Mark DivineFormer Navy SEAL and author known for teaching box breathing
- Angela DuckworthPsychologist and author of Grit
- Chris CassidyNavy SEAL and NASA astronaut, Naval Academy classmate of Miles
- Jeff BezosFounder of Amazon
Topics
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From the publisher
John R. Miles graduated from the Naval Academy and spent years supporting special operations teams, including SEAL units, on ships and in high-risk missions. He later ran technology teams at Dell and Lowe's, and he now writes books and hosts the Passionstruck podcast. Charles talks with him about what he learned leading people where mistakes cost lives and where they only cost money. When John started at Lowe's, the team he inherited ranked last in the company's employee survey. He explains what he found when he talked to the people on that team, why they had stopped speaking up, and the steps he took to turn it around. He also shares the daily habits that keep him steady and why he stopped drinking three years ago. You'll hear how he thinks about autonomy, how to rebuild trust when people are afraid to bring you bad news, why he compares leadership to gardening, and the six signals that show whether people feel they matter at work. KEY TAKEAWAYS: - Why a leader who controls every move becomes the bottleneck, and how clear boundaries let capable people do the work - How to earn trust in a new role by listening to the people closest to the work before you change anything - Why people who fear blame hide problems, and how rewarding early bad news saves time and money - How meaning, autonomy, trust, time, energy, and reciprocity show whether your team feels they matter - Why a daily habit of checking your actions against your values keeps you steady under pressure KEY POINTS: 00:20 - From the Navy to Fortune 50 tech: John explains how burning out as a high performer changed what he thinks drives real results. 02:40 - Leading special operations teams: John shares what he learned supporting SEAL units, and why a leader can never become the bottleneck. 06:01 - Earning trust on a Navy ship: John describes walking onto a ship with broken morale and why he volunteered for any job that needed doing. 13:10 - Self-regulation comes first: John walks through his daily routine of…
Summary, chapters and key points were generated from the episode transcript on October 20, 2026. Quotes are checked word for word against the transcript.