Vanessa Van Edwards: The Conversation Habit That Makes Smart People Unlikable
Episode of The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett · September 10, 2026 · 2 h 27 min
Behavioral researcher Vanessa Van Edwards tells Steven Bartlett about her three-level conversation framework, over-talking, self-narratives, five story archetypes and the cues behind charisma.
Summary
Vanessa Van Edwards appeared on The Diary Of A CEO to promote her book Conversation. She argued that conversation skills are becoming a form of career insurance as people increasingly talk to technology rather than each other, and described a speed networking experiment with 500 participants in which "What was the highlight of your day?" outperformed scripted openers such as "How are you?" and "What do you do?", while "What's your story?" polarized respondents.
Drawing on Dan McAdams's research, Van Edwards set out three levels of conversation: general traits, personal concerns and self-narrative, with three suggested questions for each. She discussed turn-taking research suggesting turns of 15 to 30 seconds, called voice notes the most selfish form of conversation, and offered a test for over-talking. She and Bartlett discussed conversational narcissism, entertainers versus appreciators, how intelligent people can "dream kill" with logic, and debated whether asking for an Instagram handle rather than a phone number harms first dates.
On level three, Van Edwards contrasted redemption and contamination narratives, recommended asking "Are you lucky?", cited Richard Wiseman's luck research and described five archetypes: the ambitious hero, contented pragmatist, selfless helper, creative disruptor and unlucky struggler. Bartlett recounted identifying with The Pursuit of Happyness while shoplifting food as a teenager.
The conversation closed with techniques for exiting conversations gracefully, cultivating charisma or "aura" through clear liking signals, warmth and competence, taking up space and using one's maximum resonance point, eye contact norms and listening cues. Van Edwards said she regretted living far from family when her children were young.
Chapters
- 1:43
Why conversation matters now
Van Edwards explains why she wrote her book amid a connection crisis and describes the symptoms of poor conversation.
- 6:47
The speed networking experiment
She recounts testing six conversation starters with 500 speed networkers and why scripted questions failed.
- 12:03
Level one: general traits
Using Dan McAdams's framework, she offers better level-one questions, information gaps and workplace uses of small talk.
- 27:43
Level two: personal concerns
She describes dream building, pet and pest projects, and questions about goals and learning.
- 36:54
Boring questions and turn-taking
She explains how to answer "What do you do?", ideal turn length, and criticizes voice notes.
- 49:41
Over-talkers and conversational narcissists
The pair discuss entertainers versus appreciators, conversational narcissism, insecurity and dream killing by smart people.
- 1:04:40
Signature questions, over-talking test and the Instagram debate
She introduces the bespoke signature question, a do-you-talk-too-much test, and argues against asking for Instagram handles.
- 1:17:52
Level three: self-narratives and luck
She contrasts redemption and contamination narratives, locus of control and the question "Are you lucky?"
- 1:35:15
The five story archetypes
She describes the ambitious hero, contented pragmatist, selfless helper, creative disruptor and unlucky struggler.
- 1:55:50
Exiting a conversation gracefully
She presents a future cue plus compliment or action formula for ending conversations.
- 1:59:14
Aura, rizz and charisma
She discusses clear liking signals, warmth and competence, not trying to impress, taking up space and vocal resonance.
- 2:13:27
Eye contact, listening and closing
She covers eye contact ratios, listening cues, preparing answers to common questions, and personal regrets about distance from family.
Key points
What was said, by whom, with the exact words. Timestamps jump to the moment.
- Vanessa Van Edwards
Van Edwards believes the current generation is the last that will learn conversation mainly from other humans.
“I think this is the last generation that will learn about conversation via human”
- Vanessa Van Edwards
Van Edwards argues that scripted questions such as "How are you?" and "What do you do?" push people into autopilot.
“So these last two, how are you and what do you do? They're very socially scripted, right? The moment we ask those questions, our brain goes into autopilot”
- Vanessa Van Edwards
Van Edwards says "What's your story?" is a level-three question that is too advanced as an opener.
“So extroverts tend to default to that question because they want to go a little bit deeper. But actually, that is a level three question”
- Vanessa Van Edwards
Van Edwards argues that conversation should seek stories rather than facts.
“I truly believe a fact is a stop sign. A story is a doorway”
- Vanessa Van Edwards
Van Edwards contends that communication friction harms company performance and that easy small talk improves productivity.
“When you have a company that has a lot of communication friction, you have employees who doubt themselves”
- Vanessa Van Edwards
Van Edwards cites research that conversational turns ideally last 15 to 30 seconds, with 45 seconds approaching a monologue.
“So in average conversation, we like 15 to 30 seconds. 45 seconds is okay, but we start to turn to a monologue”
- Vanessa Van Edwards
Van Edwards argues that voice notes are monologues rather than conversations.
“A voice note is not a conversation. A voice note is a monologue”
- Vanessa Van Edwards
Van Edwards reports that in her survey of about 4,000 people the biggest conversational fear was running out of things to say, not rejection.
“Their biggest conversational fear is not being rejected. That was one of the options on the multiple choice. It's running out of things to say”
- Vanessa Van Edwards
Van Edwards argues that very smart people often shut down connection by fact-checking others' dreams.
“And very smart people tend to dream kill by accident and it shuts down connection completely”
- Vanessa Van Edwards
Van Edwards argues that researching dates on Instagram beforehand makes first-date conversations more awkward.
“This is, I think, why we're having awkward first date conversations. Why first dates have gotten even worse is because you're on the first date”
- Vanessa Van Edwards
Van Edwards recommends that single people ask for phone numbers rather than social media handles.
“So my challenge for single people is stop asking for handles and ask for numbers”
- Vanessa Van Edwards
Van Edwards says research shows people with redemption narratives live longer and are healthier and happier.
“They have found that people with redemption narratives, they live longer, they have better immune systems, they have better connections, they feel happier”
Listen from 1:23:00 · Redemption and contamination narratives
- Vanessa Van Edwards
Van Edwards describes herself as somewhat anti-gratitude, arguing that feeling lucky is more empowering than gratitude.
“gratitude is sort of shaming in its own way i'm like kind of anti-gratitude but feeling like you're really really lucky is is so empowering”
- Steven Bartlett
Bartlett says he manages his abundance of ideas with systems, citing Jeff Bezos on releasing ideas at a pace the company can tolerate.
“Jeff Bezos said, I've got enough ideas to sink the company. And he has to learn to release them at a cadence that the company can tolerate”
- Steven Bartlett
Bartlett recounts that he identified with The Pursuit of Happyness after watching it at 18 or 19 while shoplifting food to survive.
“I was literally shoplifting food to feed myself, I watched that movie randomly”
- Vanessa Van Edwards
Van Edwards cites the peak-end effect to argue that the ending of a conversation matters as much as the first impression.
“So there's a behavior concept, the peak-end effect, that we remember the first few minutes of a conversation and the last few minutes of conversation”
- Vanessa Van Edwards
Van Edwards says speaking from one's maximum resonance point, the low end of one's natural range, signals pride and calm.
“Maximum resonance point is a part of your voice that is the lowest end of your natural range that signifies pride, that signifies calm”
Linked moment · 2:13:27Skip to 2:13:27 using a listen link in the info box.
Vanessa Van EdwardsVan Edwards says roughly 60 to 70 percent eye contact is ideal in Western cultures, because constant eye contact impairs complex thinking.
“We don't even want 70% eye contact. 60-70% eye contact is more ideal in Western cultures”
- Vanessa Van Edwards
Van Edwards says she regrets living far from her family when her children were very young.
“I regret being away from my family when my children were very, very little. It was really hard to have babies without my mom, without my sister”
People
In the conversation
- Steven BartlettBritish entrepreneur and host of The Diary Of A CEO podcast
- Vanessa Van EdwardsBehavioral researcher, bestselling author, and founder of Science of People
Discussed
- Dan McAdamsPsychologist whose research on personality levels underpins Van Edwards's framework
- Howard SternAmerican radio host on whose show Stallone's parents argued in 1992
- Jerry SeinfeldComedian and co-creator of Seinfeld
- Dale CarnegieAmerican self-help author credited with the idea of being interested rather than interesting
- Richard WisemanBritish psychologist cited for a study on mistakes and likability
- Bill EddyAuthor whose work describes high-conflict personalities
- Amy PoehlerAmerican actress, comedian and podcast host, formerly of Saturday Night Live
- Jeff BezosFounder of Amazon
- Edward SnowdenFormer NSA contractor cited as an example of a creative disruptor
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From the publisher
Are you sabotaging yourself with terrible communication habits and unconscious body language? Unlock the secrets of human connection to cultivate charisma, forge deeper connections, and eliminate awkward small talk for good. Vanessa Van Edwards is a behavioral researcher and the author of Cues, Captivate, and her new book, Conversation. She returns to decode the underlying dynamics that shape relationships, providing actionable techniques to bypass social autopilot. She helps master non-verbal cues to prevent communication friction from harming your career and personal life. In this episode, she explains: ■ The Conversation Blueprint: How to navigate the three distinct psychological levels of interaction ■ The Autopilot Trap: Why socially scripted questions like "How are you?" or "What do you do?" actually destroy connection. ■ The Mechanics of Rizz: The exact science behind conversational turn taking, why speaking for more than 45 seconds creates friction. ■ Command with Body Language: How to instantly project warmth and competence by finding your maximum resonance point. ■ The Five Story Archetypes: How to decode the psychological narratives of the people around you. Chapters 00:00:00 Intro 00:02:16 How to Connect With Anyone 00:03:25 Why Great Conversation Is a Superpower 00:06:46 The 3 Questions That Build Instant Connection 00:18:04 The Fastest Way to Build a Real Connection 00:23:50 How to Get to Know Someone Fast 00:32:46 Why Genuine Curiosity Makes You More Charismatic 00:35:37 The Questions That Secretly Kill Conversations 00:40:45 What’s Worse: Talking Too Much or Too Little? 00:44:20 How to Know If You Talk Too Much 00:45:27 How to Spot a Conversational Narcissist 00:48:39 Ads 00:55:16 How to Know If You’re a Conversational Narcissist 01:08:55 The Real Reason First Dates Go Wrong 01:13:52 Can You Go Too Deep Too Quickly? 01:18:08 How to Rewrite the Story You Tell Yourself 01:22:55 The Psychology of Taking Control of Your Life 01:25:21 Ads 01:30:07 What S…
Summary, chapters and key points were generated from the episode transcript on October 4, 2026. Quotes are checked word for word against the transcript.