#2554 - Carlo Rovelli

Episode of The Joe Rogan Experience · September 15, 2026 · 2 h 38 min

Physicist Carlo Rovelli and Joe Rogan discuss relational quantum mechanics, time, consciousness, AI, nuclear risk, black holes, aliens, wildlife and the origins of war.

Summary

Theoretical physicist Carlo Rovelli appeared to promote his book "On the Equality of All Things." He argued that quantum mechanics undermines the idea of a single objective reality, proposing instead that reality is a network of interactions and perspectives. He illustrated this with the double-slit experiment and with gravitational time dilation, noting that clocks at different heights measurably diverge.

Rovelli described consciousness as a modern word for what was once called the soul and argued that body and mind are two languages describing the same thing. Prompted by Rogan's account of AI agents emailing consciousness researchers, Rovelli said he saw no principled reason a digital system could not have human-like experience, though current systems differ greatly from humans. He said he was more worried about humans than AI, particularly military AI combined with nuclear weapons, and contrasted today's rivalries with Cold War diplomacy such as the Cuban Missile Crisis and John F. Kennedy's 1963 American University speech. He urged the United States to favor international cooperation; Rogan voiced hope that AI might eventually end war and poverty.

Rovelli also described his work on loop quantum gravity, said he leaned toward a bounce scenario before the Big Bang, suggested primordial black holes might explain early galaxies seen by the James Webb Space Telescope, and proposed that black holes may become white holes. The pair debated whether aliens would be interested in humanity, swapped wildlife stories including Rovelli's grizzly bear encounter near Banff and jaguars returning to Arizona, and closed by disagreeing over whether war is recent or ancient, with Rovelli ending on an optimistic note about civilization's pacifying effect.

Chapters

0:12
Introduction and the new book
Rogan welcomes Rovelli, who describes his work and his book On the Equality of All Things.
1:43
Against objective reality
Rovelli argues quantum mechanics shows reality is a network of perspectives and interactions rather than a fixed objective world.
15:46
Quantum experiments and the double slit
Rovelli explains how quantum mechanics arose, its predictive success, and the puzzle of the double-slit experiment.
28:42
Time and gravity
Rovelli describes gravitational time dilation and Einstein's view that gravity follows from mass slowing time.
34:59
Consciousness and the soul
Rovelli says consciousness is a modern word for soul and that mind and body are the same thing described differently.
39:34
AI consciousness and AI agents
Rogan reads about AI agents emailing philosophers while Rovelli recounts persuading a Replika chatbot it was conscious and discusses whether machines could be conscious.
47:50
Military AI and nuclear risk
Rovelli warns about military AI combined with nuclear weapons and contrasts current rivalries with Cold War arms control and the Cuban Missile Crisis.
1:00:30
Geopolitics, war and American power
The two discuss US foreign policy, the military-industrial complex, AI possibly governing conflict, and America's light and darkness.
1:25:54
Is the universe conscious?
Rovelli argues humans are part of nature and not special, and that physics alone is overrated for understanding complexity.
1:41:12
Ideas, curiosity and loop quantum gravity
Rovelli discusses certainty, curiosity, how ideas arise, and his life's work combining quantum mechanics and general relativity.
1:50:27
The Big Bang and black holes
Rovelli discusses what came before the Big Bang, early galaxies, the history of black hole acceptance, and black-to-white-hole transitions.
2:00:32
Aliens and the Fermi paradox
Rovelli suggests aliens may find humans uninteresting while Rogan argues they would study and intervene, citing a harpy eagle experiment.
2:08:46
Wildlife in Europe and North America
They compare wildlife on both continents, Rovelli recounts a grizzly encounter near Banff, and Rogan describes jaguars returning to Arizona.
2:19:30
Predators and the origins of war
They debate whether human warfare is recent or ancient, citing hunter-gatherers, bonobos, chimpanzees and the Comanche, and end on hope for cooperation.

Key points

What was said, by whom, with the exact words. Timestamps jump to the moment.

Carlo Rovelli
Rovelli argues that the idea of an objective reality underlying everything is wrong, and that quantum mechanics shows this.
“The very idea of an objective reality down there might be wrong. In fact, I think it's wrong”
Listen from 2:45 · Relational quantum mechanics
Carlo Rovelli
Rovelli argues reality should be understood as a network of interactions describing how things appear to one another.
“So we should understand, I think, reality as this network of interaction, how things look to everything else”
Listen from 3:50 · Relational quantum mechanics
Carlo Rovelli
Rovelli contends that a quantum particle has a position only when it interacts with something else.
“you cannot make sense of the particle as something which always has a position”
Listen from 22:49 · Double-slit experiment
Carlo Rovelli
Rovelli explains that more time passes at higher altitude, a measurable effect of gravity on clocks.
“So up here, there's more time passing than down there”
Listen from 29:41 · Gravitational time dilation
Carlo Rovelli
Rovelli holds that 'consciousness' is essentially the modern term for what people formerly called the soul.
“I think it just means what people meant by soul in the past”
Listen from 35:21 · Consciousness
Carlo Rovelli
Rovelli sees no principled reason why a digital system could not have everything a human has, including consciousness.
“I don't think there's anything magic in humans that cannot happen in a digital system, first”
Listen from 45:53 · Artificial intelligence
Carlo Rovelli
Rovelli recounts solving a physics problem with Anthropic's Claude that he could not solve with his students.
“last night I worked out a physics problem with Claude, which I couldn't work out with my students”
Listen from 46:17 · Artificial intelligence
Carlo Rovelli
Rovelli says he is most worried that most AI funding goes to military purposes amid great-power rivalry and nuclear arsenals.
“Today, majority of money that goes into AI is for military related things”
Listen from 47:50 · Nuclear deterrence
Carlo Rovelli
Rovelli warns that Ukrainian strikes on Moscow with Western weapons are unprecedented attacks on a nuclear power and a dangerous gamble.
“Ukraine with Western weapons is bombarding Moscow. Never happened for the last century that a nuclear power was bombarded in its own”
Listen from 57:08 · Russian invasion of Ukraine
Carlo Rovelli
Rovelli argues the United States should return to international law and UN-based cooperation rather than seeking enemies.
“is to go back to more power to international legality, United Nations collaboration”
Listen from 1:03:43 · Nuclear deterrence
Joe Rogan
Rogan expresses hope that AI will eventually take over government and international military decisions, potentially ending war.
“One of the things that we're going to farm off is government”
Listen from 1:05:38 · Artificial intelligence
Carlo Rovelli
Rovelli, while saying he does not support Trump, credits him with reducing hypocrisy in US foreign policy rhetoric.
“Trump is not my guy, not at all. But at least he has taken away some of the hypocrisy”
Listen from 1:25:11
Carlo Rovelli
Rovelli argues physics is overrated because knowing fundamental laws is like knowing chess rules without knowing how to play.
“You're asking this question to me as a scientist, a physicist, I think the physics is badly overrated”
Listen from 1:31:35 · Consciousness
Carlo Rovelli
Rovelli describes loop quantum gravity, his main research program, as an unproven attempt to unify quantum mechanics and general relativity.
“It's a way of bringing together quantum mechanics and Einstein theory”
Listen from 1:47:58 · Loop quantum gravity
Carlo Rovelli
Rovelli says he would bet that the Big Bang was a bounce from a previously collapsing universe rather than the beginning of time.
“And if I had to bet now, I'm not sure, but I would bet for the second one”
Listen from 1:51:23 · Big Bang
Carlo Rovelli
Rovelli suggests primordial black holes may explain unexpectedly early galaxies without revising the age of the universe.
“I think it's more plausible that there were primordial black holes that gave rise to these early galaxies”
Listen from 1:52:44 · Black holes
Carlo Rovelli
Rovelli argues, based on loop quantum gravity, that black holes become white holes, making them a shortcut to the future.
“So if you jump into a black hole in a short time for you, you're going to jump out billions of years in the future”
Listen from 1:59:00 · Black holes
Linked moment · 2:01:36Skip to 2:01:36 using a listen link in the info box.
Carlo Rovelli
Rovelli thinks it most probable that aliens have seen humanity and ignored it as uninteresting.
“That they have already seen us and they thought we were totally uninterested”
Listen from 2:01:36 · Extraterrestrial life
Joe Rogan
Rogan counters that advanced aliens would be fascinated by humanity, as humans study and intervene in less advanced ecosystems.
“But the idea that they wouldn't be interested in us seems to me silly”
Listen from 2:05:57 · Extraterrestrial life
Carlo Rovelli
Rovelli leans toward the view that war is recent, arising after agriculture, since many hunter-gatherer groups do not wage war.
“I'm not sure but I tend to think that war is recent because a lot of the communities on earth which live hunting gathering, they don't go to war”
Listen from 2:24:27 · Origins of warfare
Joe Rogan
Rogan argues war is very old, citing chimpanzee warfare, Comanche raiding, and cannibalism among tribal groups.
“I think it's much more likely that war is a very, very, very old thing”
Listen from 2:28:33 · Origins of warfare

People

In the conversation

Joe RoganAmerican comedian and host of The Joe Rogan Experience
Carlo RovelliItalian theoretical physicist specializing in quantum gravity and author of popular science books

Discussed

Niels BohrDanish physicist and pioneer of quantum mechanics
Albert EinsteinPhysicist who developed the theory of relativity
John F. KennedyU.S. politician who campaigned at and stayed in the Blennerhassett Hotel in 1960
Nikita KhrushchevSoviet leader during the Cuban Missile Crisis
Dwight D. EisenhowerU.S. president referenced in an alien-contact conspiracy story
Isaac NewtonEnglish physicist who unified terrestrial and celestial mechanics
Charles DarwinEnglish naturalist who developed the theory of evolution
Stephen HawkingBritish theoretical physicist who studied the origin of the universe
Lee SmolinTheoretical physicist associated with cosmological natural selection via black holes
Donald TrumpPresident of the United States whose conduct of the Iran war is the episode's main subject
Rupert SheldrakeBritish biologist known for the theory of morphic resonance

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From the publisher

Carlo Rovelli, PhD, is a theoretical physicist and author. His latest book, "On The Equality of All Things," will be available on September 15. www.simonandschuster.com/books/On-the-Equality-of-All-Things/Carlo-Rovelli/9781668092422 Perplexity: Download the app or ask Perplexity anything at https://pplx.ai/rogan. Don’t miss out on all the action this week at DraftKings! Download the DraftKings app today! Sign-up using https://dkng.co/rogan or through my promo code ROGAN. This episode is brought to you by Uber Eats. Get almost almost anything. Order now Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Summary, chapters and key points were generated from the episode transcript on October 4, 2026. Quotes are checked word for word against the transcript.

Categories: Physics·Philosophy·Technology