#883: How to Legalize Medical Psychedelics in Your Country — Tania de Jong on The Playbook Behind Australia's World-First Breakthrough
Episode of The Tim Ferriss Show · September 18, 2026 · 2 h 12 min
Tim Ferriss talks with Mind Medicine Australia co-founder Tania de Jong about how Australia became the first country to allow prescribing MDMA and psilocybin for psychiatric conditions.
Summary
Tim Ferriss interviewed Tania de Jong, an entrepreneur and singer who co-founded Mind Medicine Australia with her husband Peter. De Jong recounted reading Michael Pollan's New Yorker article "The Trip Treatment" via Ferriss's newsletter, her first guided psilocybin experiences in the Netherlands, a week spent with Ram Dass in Maui, and Rick Doblin's 2018 encouragement to start an Australian charity, which launched in February 2019.
De Jong described the campaign to have the Therapeutic Goods Administration reschedule MDMA and psilocybin: repeated rejected applications refined in response to the regulator's stated reasons, a public consultation drawing more than 13,000 submissions, over 30 volunteer chapters, a clinician training certificate, lobbyists, an advisory panel recruited partly through a Usona conference where she spoke and sang, and a 2022 presentation to TGA staff by David Nutt alongside a widow whose husband had died after treatment-resistant depression. She attributed the February 2023 decision largely to that personal testimony and to the data.
The pair discussed implementation since then: authorised prescriber psychiatrists, roughly 400 patients treated with reported 60 to 80 percent remission and no serious adverse events, a real-world evidence registry at the Australian National University, payers including the Department of Veterans' Affairs, the NDIS and Medibank, and costs driven mainly by therapist time. Ferriss argued MDMA is underestimated, favored group integration, warned about ketamine's addiction potential while describing how infusions resolved his chronic back pain, and raised shorter-acting compounds as a way to cut costs.
De Jong reflected on mistakes, including hiring staff who were not ready for high-stress work, vicious attacks from some researchers, and criticism that the organization was too pushy, which she argued was necessary. She closed with appeals for her patient support fund and training program, and urged listeners to be curious and to ask for help.
Chapters
- 0:00
Introduction
Ferriss introduces Tania de Jong and frames the episode as a playbook for ambitious change from an outsider position.
- 2:47
The Trip Treatment and first experiences
De Jong describes discovering psychedelic research through Ferriss's newsletter and her transformative guided psilocybin sessions in the Netherlands.
- 10:29
Founding Mind Medicine Australia and early TGA applications
After meeting researchers and Rick Doblin, the couple launched the charity and filed repeated rescheduling applications that were initially rejected.
- 20:51
Building a movement and recruiting allies
De Jong explains the volunteer chapters, templates, clinician training, advisory panel and how speaking and singing at a Usona conference opened doors.
- 31:11
A week with Ram Dass
De Jong recounts living beside Ram Dass in Maui, and Ferriss tells the story of Ram Dass giving LSD to his guru.
- 38:25
David Nutt, Vanessa and the rescheduling decision
A presentation to 140 TGA staff featuring a widow's testimony and David Nutt preceded the February 2023 rescheduling announcement.
- 43:33
From rescheduling to treating patients
De Jong outlines the authorised prescriber system, patient outcomes and therapy approaches, while Ferriss argues MDMA is underestimated.
- 52:29
Scaling access, real-world data and payers
They discuss growth projections, the ANU evidence registry and bringing veterans' affairs, the NDIS and Medibank on board as payers.
- 1:00:41
Syrian rue, dosing and group therapy
The two compare experiences with psilocybin and Syrian rue, discuss dose escalation by newcomers, and praise group integration.
- 1:13:25
Mistakes, attacks and resilience
De Jong describes conflicts with researchers, hiring problems and the personal toll of advocacy, and Ferriss discusses durability of remission and critical windows.
- 1:27:32
Remaining barriers, costs and alternative compounds
They cover bureaucratic roadblocks, treatment costs, shorter-acting compounds, kratom, and Ferriss's ketamine experiment.
- 1:46:51
The future, persistence and asks
De Jong forecasts global registrations, defends the campaign's pushiness, makes asks for donations and trainees, and urges curiosity.
Key points
What was said, by whom, with the exact words. Timestamps jump to the moment.
- Tania de Jong
De Jong says the final rescheduling consultation drew over 13,000 public submissions, with more than 98% in support.
“over 13,000 Australians supported this submission through public submissions to our Therapeutic Goods Administration supporting the medicine”
- Tania de JongPrediction · due Mar 2027
De Jong anticipates that psilocybin medicines from Usona and Compass Pathways will become registered within about six months.
“Over the next six months or so, we anticipate a number of these medicines becoming registered medicines”
- Tania de Jong
De Jong argues that a key argument to the TGA was that inaction itself carried risk because treatment-resistant patients might take their own lives.
“one of the arguments that was really important for the Therapeutic Goods Administration was there's a risk to not doing anything”
- Tania de Jong
De Jong reports that Australian clinics are seeing 60 to 80 percent remission rates, matching international trials.
“we are seeing 60 to 80% remission rates in Australia, which is replicating what we've seen in trials around the world”
- Tim Ferriss
Ferriss argues MDMA is underestimated given its manageability compared with other psychedelics.
“I think MDMA is very underestimated, given how, broadly speaking, how manageable it is relative to many of the other psychedelics that we could discuss”
- Tania de Jong
De Jong hopes nutrition and exercise will increasingly be part of post-treatment integration to prevent relapse.
“there's all sorts of things around nutrition and exercise that we're hoping will be more and more included as integration therapy post-treatment”
- Tania de JongPrediction · due Sep 2029
De Jong conservatively predicts around 5,000 Australian patients could be treated over the next three years.
“So maybe it will get to 5,000 by then. This is me being conservative”
- Tim Ferriss
Ferriss bets that group delivery of psychedelic treatment will be more cost-effective and also produce better outcomes.
“not only will it be much more cost-effective to deliver some of these medications in group environments”
- Tania de Jong
De Jong opposed funding research that replicated trials already conducted many times overseas, which brought conflict with some researchers.
“we were not fans of replicating trials that had already been undertaken at least five to 10 or more times in other markets overseas”
- Tania de Jong
De Jong says a hiring mistake was taking on staff with lived experience of mental illness who were not ready for a high-stress advocacy environment.
“we were attracting people who still needed to do more work on themselves rather than working in a high powered high stress environment”
- Tim Ferriss
Ferriss believes psychedelics open a critical window for behavior change, making integration and behavioral systems essential.
“But I believe these psychedelics open a critical period, a critical window. within which you can change longstanding beliefs and behaviors”
- Tania de Jong
De Jong believes the testimony of a widow, more than David Nutt's science presentation, was decisive in persuading TGA staff.
“I think it was the fact that people could see a real life example”
- Tania de Jong
De Jong says Mind Medicine Australia has applied to extend psilocybin access to end-of-life distress, citing the legality of assisted dying.
“We're trying to extend the psilocybin to end of life stress and anxiety because, you know, virtual assisted dying is legal in Australia”
Linked moment · 1:32:29Skip to 1:32:29 using a listen link in the info box.
Tania de JongDe Jong says the full course of treatment costs up to about A$25,000, mostly due to therapist time rather than the drug.
“So it's about a three to four month course that is costing maybe up to about $25,000 Australian dollars, about say $15,000 US dollars”
- Tania de Jong
De Jong emphasizes that therapist time, not medicine, accounts for most of the treatment cost.
“it is really important to say that the majority of that cost is therapeutic time”
- Tim Ferriss
Ferriss argues that the FDA struggled with MDMA therapy because it cannot standardize or regulate psychotherapy paired with a drug.
“the fda on our side does not know how to think about standardizing or regulating psychotherapy”
- Tim Ferriss
Ferriss warns that ketamine has high addiction potential and says he has seen lives unravel because of it.
“It has very, very high addiction potential. I have seen a lot of lives unravel because of ketamine”
- Tim Ferriss
Ferriss recounts that a course of ketamine infusions permanently resolved a chronic back injury, despite disliking the experience.
“after I had that, whatever it was, week or two weeks of infusions, that went away, never came back”
- Tania de Jong
Responding to criticism of the organization's aggressiveness, de Jong argues that a less forceful campaign would not have succeeded.
“in terms of this particular campaign, I don't really think that anything less would have been enough”
People
In the conversation
- Tim FerrissAmerican author, podcaster and investor, host of The Tim Ferriss Show
- Tania de JongAustralian entrepreneur, singer and co-founder of Mind Medicine Australia
Discussed
- Peter HuntTania de Jong's husband and co-founder of Mind Medicine Australia
- Michael PollanJournalist and author of How to Change Your Mind
- Rick DoblinFounder of MAPS and psychedelic advocate
- David NuttBritish neuropsychopharmacologist at Imperial College London
- Robin Carhart-HarrisBritish psychedelic neuroscientist
- Roland GriffithsJohns Hopkins psychedelic researcher
- Ram DassAmerican spiritual teacher quoted as saying we are all just walking each other home
- Timothy LearyAmerican psychologist and psychedelic advocate
- Neem Karoli BabaIndian guru of Ram Dass, referred to as Maharaji
- Bill LintonFounder of the Usona Institute
- Alexander ShulginChemist known for psychedelic research and popularizing MDMA
- John SkerrittFormer head of Australia's Therapeutic Goods Administration
- Paul FitzgeraldAustralian National University psychiatry professor leading a real-world evidence registry
- Gul DolenNeuroscientist studying psychedelic reopening of critical periods
- John KrystalYale psychiatrist known for foundational ketamine research
- Aldous HuxleyEnglish writer quoted at the episode's close
Topics
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From the publisher
My guest today is Tania de Jong , co-founder of Mind Medicine Australia . Tania and her husband, Peter, helped lead the push that, in 2023, made Australia the first country in the world to allow MDMA and psilocybin to be prescribed for psychiatric conditions. I wanted to understand how the hell they helped make that happen and what the rest of the world can learn from it. This episode is brought to you by: ProLon science-backed Fasting Mimicking Diet that helps activate cellular renewal through fasting, while still eating nourishing meals: https://prolonlife.com/Tim Momentous high-quality creatine for cognitive and muscular support: https://LiveMomentous.com/Tim AG1 all-in-one nutritional supplement: DrinkAG1.com/Tim Timestamps [00:00:00] Intro from Tim. [00:02:46] The article that changed Tania’s life. [00:04:39] A first psychedelic experience—and the year it took to integrate it. [00:10:17] Rick Doblin’s encouragement and the birth of Mind Medicine Australia. [00:13:15] Turning regulatory rejection into a stronger application. [00:20:48] Building a grassroots movement and training clinicians. [00:23:23] Cold emails, scientific allies, and singing your way into the room. [00:31:11] A week with Ram Dass: silence, singing, and an extraordinary LSD story. [00:37:54] Bringing David Nutt—and a family’s devastating story—to the regulators. [00:42:42] Dancing in the kitchen: Australia’s rescheduling breakthrough. [00:43:40] From changing the rules to treating patients. [00:48:18] Why Tim thinks MDMA is still underestimated. [00:50:23] Integration beyond the session: therapy, nutrition, and exercise. [00:52:29] Scaling access and collecting real-world evidence. [00:58:13] Getting insurers, government agencies, and philanthropists on board. [01:00:44] Syrian rue, psilocybin, and learning to let go of control. [01:09:06] Dosing, expectations, and the pressure to take more. [01:11:07] The promise of group therapy and shared integration. [01:13:27] Hiring mistakes, personal a…
Summary, chapters and key points were generated from the episode transcript on November 1, 2026. Quotes are checked word for word against the transcript.