Overcome Addictions & Obsessions of All Kinds | Dr. Anna Lembke

Episode of Huberman Lab · November 9, 2026 · 2 h 17 min

Andrew Huberman and psychiatrist Anna Lembke discuss dopamine, addiction as an addiction to control, spiritual surrender, codependency, and treatments including GLP-1s and ketamine.

Summary

Andrew Huberman hosted Stanford addiction psychiatrist Anna Lembke to discuss digital media addiction, dopamine dynamics, and her new book Radical Surrender. Lembke reported that about half of referrals to her adolescent clinic now involve digital media addiction, defined addiction via the "four Cs," and described her pleasure-pain balance model of homeostasis, withdrawal, and relapse, recommending roughly 30 days of abstinence to reset reward pathways. She argued that digital media should be addressed like pollution, with both individual agency and top-down guardrails.

Lembke contended that in severe addiction people are addicted to control itself, and that modern society's many levers for control have produced anxiety, self-loathing shame, and nihilistic boredom. She described emerging research identifying the periaqueductal gray as a hub of a spirituality network, linked surrender to serotonin-mediated plasticity, and recounted how the death of her son Lucas from leukemia led to her own spiritual pivot. She recommended prayer even without firm belief and the practice of "doing the next right thing."

The conversation also covered codependency, which Lembke described as using other people as one's drug of choice, gender patterns in addicted families, the decline of rites of passage among youth, and the reluctance of scientists to discuss spirituality. She cautioned that psychedelic harms rise with use, described ketamine's addiction risks and the in-clinic Montreal Model, noted a telehealth-driven surge in stimulant addiction, and reported that GLP-1 drugs have helped some treatment-refractory alcohol patients. She closed by saying she may not write another book.

Chapters

2:17
Digital media addiction
Lembke describes rising awareness of social media addiction, the four Cs of addiction, and a pollution analogy for regulating technology.
6:43
Dopamine and the pleasure-pain balance
Lembke explains dopamine signaling, homeostasis, withdrawal, and how abstinence or medications restore balance.
16:03
Treating addiction and replacement behaviors
The pair discuss whether to abstain from multiple substances, 30-day abstinence experiments, 12-step recovery, and addiction as the modern plague.
26:40
Trauma, risk factors, and rock bottom
Lembke covers childhood trauma, genetic and access risk factors, the victim narrative, denial, consequences, and interventions.
37:01
Addicted to control
Prompted by a friend's faith-based recovery, Lembke argues severe addiction is an addiction to control and describes the modern control paradox.
51:59
The PAG, serotonin, and surrender
Lembke describes the periaqueductal gray as a spirituality hub and contrasts dopamine with serotonin-driven plasticity during surrender.
1:02:35
Psychedelics and their risks
Huberman and Lembke discuss psilocybin's promise alongside rising emergency department harms from hallucinogens.
1:08:29
Lembke's personal pivot and science's aversion to spirituality
Lembke recounts her son's death and her surrender, and the two discuss scientists' hidden spiritual lives and fear of death.
1:21:58
Crisis, prayer, and the next right thing
Lembke describes the modern crisis of the will and recommends prayer and doing the next right thing.
1:25:40
Codependency
The conversation covers codependency's origins in Al-Anon, its expansion to parenting and technology, gender patterns, and how to overcome it.
1:44:28
Youth, uncertainty, faithing, and symbols
They discuss rites of passage, Gen Z offline gatherings, faith without belief, prayer for others, and synchronicity in grief.
1:56:58
Transcending the self and daily practice
Huberman and Lembke discuss ego, individualism, social media as reality TV, and Lembke's daily spiritual routine.
2:04:24
Ketamine, stimulants, GLP-1s, and thought addiction
Lembke addresses ketamine misuse, telehealth stimulant addiction, GLP-1s for alcohol addiction, addiction to thoughts, and future books.

Key points

What was said, by whom, with the exact words. Timestamps jump to the moment.

Anna Lembke
Lembke reports that about half of referrals to her adolescent clinic are now for digital media addiction.
“Our adolescent clinic now about 50% of the referrals are for digital media addiction”
Listen from 3:49 · Social media and adolescent mental health
Anna Lembke
Lembke argues that digital media addiction should be treated like pollution, requiring governments, schools, and corporations as well as individual agency.
“we also need governments, schools, corporations that make and profit from these digital devices to really come to the table and help us help ourselves”
Listen from 6:01 · Social media and adolescent mental health
Anna Lembke
Lembke explains that chronic use shifts the hedonic set point so people need their drug just to feel normal.
“I need more of my drug in more potent forms, not to get high and feel good, but just to level the balance and feel normal”
Listen from 11:52 · Dopamine
Anna Lembke
Lembke says most people experience 10 to 14 days of acute withdrawal and about 80% feel significantly better by weeks three or four.
“But usually by weeks three or weeks four, about 80% of folks will report starting to feel significantly better”
Listen from 14:11 · Addiction and recovery
Anna Lembke
Lembke recommends a 30-day abstinence experiment because that is roughly how long it takes to begin resetting reward pathways.
“Why 30 days? Because on average, that is the amount of time it takes to begin to reset reward pathways”
Listen from 18:33 · Addiction and recovery
Anna Lembke
Lembke argues that searching for the reasons behind an addiction is unproductive early on, and trauma work should follow early recovery.
“For people to really be able to process the trauma that might be contributing to the addiction, they first need to get into at least early recovery”
Listen from 29:58 · Psychological trauma
Anna Lembke
Lembke holds that in severe addiction, people are addicted to control rather than to the substance or behavior itself.
“in the severest cases of addiction, people are not actually addicted to that substance or that behavior. What they're addicted to is control”
Listen from 39:37 · Spiritual surrender
Anna Lembke
Lembke argues that pathological gamblers are addicted to the game rather than money, which explains loss chasing.
“People think that people who get addicted to gambling are addicted to money. They're not addicted to money”
Listen from 40:21 · Addiction and recovery
Anna Lembke
Lembke cites emerging research suggesting the control network inhibits a spirituality network centered on the periaqueductal gray.
“our spirituality network can't actually get activated when our control network is online because the control network is inhibiting the spirituality network”
Listen from 49:39 · Periaqueductal gray
Andrew Huberman
Huberman says he benefited from clinical psilocybin use but believes it would be harmful for many people.
“And I felt it benefited me tremendously. But I can think of many, many people for whom it would probably be the worst possible thing for them to do”
Listen from 1:05:20 · Psychedelic therapy
Anna Lembke
Lembke reports that her team's research shows hallucinogen-related emergency and hospital harms rise as use increases.
“as use goes up, the number of ED-related harms and hospital admission-related harms also goes up”
Listen from 1:05:56 · Psychedelic therapy
Andrew Huberman
Huberman suggests that fear of death underlies all addictions and the aversion to acknowledging lack of control.
“to acknowledge that we're not in complete control is also to acknowledge that we're going to die”
Listen from 1:20:25 · Spiritual surrender
Anna Lembke
Lembke recommends that people pray even if unsure they believe in a higher power, requiring only admission of the limits of control.
“I really recommend that people pray, even if they're not sure they believe in a higher power”
Listen from 1:22:13 · Spiritual surrender
Anna Lembke
Lembke describes that when the codependent family member lets go, the addicted loved one often moves toward recovery.
“As soon as the codependent lets go, this person gets into recovery. or starts to make the moves”
Listen from 1:35:40 · Codependency and love addiction
Anna Lembke
Lembke observes clinically that mothers tend toward codependent enmeshment while fathers tend to withdraw in addicted families.
“mothers tend to be more caught up in this codependent enmeshment and enabling, and fathers tend to withdraw and be detached”
Listen from 1:40:32 · Codependency and love addiction
Anna Lembke
Lembke warns that having a condition treated by an addictive drug does not protect a patient from becoming addicted to it, calling this the big myth of the opioid epidemic.
“So this was the big myth with the opioid epidemic, right? As long as you are being prescribed opioids for pain, you're somehow immune to the problem of addiction”
Listen from 2:07:09 · Ketamine
Linked moment · 2:07:57Skip to 2:07:57 using a listen link in the info box.
Anna Lembke
Lembke says there has been an explosion of stimulant addiction since COVID via telehealth prescribers operating like pill mills.
“especially since COVID is an explosion of people getting addicted to stimulants that they got online through a telehealth prescriber”
Listen from 2:07:57 · Addiction and recovery
Anna Lembke
Lembke reports that some patients with severe, treatment-refractory alcohol addiction get into recovery on GLP-1 drugs.
“some of those patients, when we put them on a GLP-1, they get into recovery when nothing else works”
Listen from 2:08:58 · GLP-1 receptor agonists

People

In the conversation

Andrew HubermanAmerican neuroscientist, professor at Stanford School of Medicine and host of the Huberman Lab podcast
Anna LembkeStanford psychiatrist and author of Dopamine Nation

Discussed

Kent DunningtonTheologian and philosopher, friend and colleague of Lembke
Ben AffleckDirector and star of The Town
Pia MellodyAuthor and clinician known for early work on codependency
Karl DeisserothStanford psychiatrist and co-developer of optogenetics
Nicolas GarelFormer mentee of Lembke who developed the Montreal Model of ketamine-assisted therapy
Donald WinnicottBritish psychoanalyst who described the 'good enough mother'
Mother TeresaCatholic nun and missionary whose reported doubts about God were discussed
William JamesAmerican philosopher and psychologist quoted on human understanding
Lamberto MaffeiItalian neuroscientist who studied reopening critical-period plasticity with SSRIs

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From the publisher

Dr. Anna Lembke, MD, is chief of the Addiction Medicine Dual Diagnosis Clinic at Stanford and a leading expert in how to overcome addictions of all kinds. We discuss dopamine dynamics in the brain and how they impact risk-taking, mental obsession, and compulsive behaviors. We also discuss the most common addiction of all—people’s addiction to control—and how prayer and spiritual practices can open up new neural pathways and help end unhealthy thought patterns and behaviors, including codependence. Read the full episode show notes at hubermanlab.com. Thank you to our sponsors AG1: https://drinkag1.com/huberman Function: https://functionhealth.com/huberman Helix Sleep: https://helixsleep.com/huberman Lingo: https://hellolingo.com/huberman LMNT: https://drinklmnt.com/huberman Timestamps (00:00:00) Anna Lembke (00:02:14) Social Media, Digital Media Addiction, 4 Cs; Pollution Analogy (00:06:43) Dopamine, Reinforcing Behaviors & Addiction (00:09:03) Sponsors: Lingo & Helix Sleep (00:11:26) Pleasure & Pain, Homeostasis; Withdrawal & Relapse; Restoring Balance (00:16:02) Treating Addiction, Behavior Replacement, 12 Step (00:22:59) Addiction is the Modern Plague, Spiritual Transformation (00:26:39) Addiction Risk Factors, Trauma; Addiction Consequences; Interventions (00:35:47) Sponsor: AG1 (00:37:00) Spiritual Pivot, Addicted to Control; Anxiety & Shame (00:45:57) Control Paradox & Radical Surrender (00:51:58) Periaqueductal Gray (PAG), Spirituality, Addiction & Control (00:58:08) Dopamine & Serotonin, Higher Power & Surrender (01:02:34) Psychedelics, Psilocybin, Risk (01:06:50) Sponsor: Function (01:08:28) Neurobiology of Surrender, PAG, Hitting Rock Bottom (01:13:40) Aversion to Discussing Spirituality, Open Curiosity; Death (01:21:58) Crisis & Despair, Tools: Prayer; Do the Next Right Thing; Codependence (01:29:26) Codependence, Parenting, Technology; Making Assumptions (01:38:48) Sponsor: LMNT (01:40:08) Codependence, Mother & Father; Overcoming Codependency (01:44:28)…

Summary, chapters and key points were generated from the episode transcript on November 14, 2026. Quotes are checked word for word against the transcript.

Categories: Mental Health·Spirituality·Life Sciences