708: Danny Meyer - How You Make People Feel: The Founder of Shake Shack & Union Square Hospitality Group on Culture as Soil, the 49/51 Hiring Formula, and Leading With Generosity
Episode of The Learning Leader Show With Ryan Hawk · September 27, 2026 · 54 min
Ryan Hawk interviews restaurateur Danny Meyer about enlightened hospitality, scaling culture, the 49/51 hiring formula, and how a hot dog cart became Shake Shack.
Summary
Ryan Hawk hosted Danny Meyer, founder of Union Square Hospitality Group and Shake Shack, to discuss his new book What Could Possibly Go Right? Meyer explained the origin of his line that business, like life, is about how you make people feel, and described optimism as something most people respond to, a lesson he traced to managing volunteers on a political campaign.
Meyer compared culture to the soil a plant grows in, arguing that growing businesses need funding and leadership but also a culture where leaders are explicit about which behaviors are celebrated and which are not tolerated, and where hiring and promotions reflect stated values. He said curiosity is the behavior he celebrates most, described entrepreneurs as "upsighted," and drew on his early career selling anti-shoplifting tags to argue that sales and writing skills benefit every job. He outlined "entrepreneurial athleticism," a "day one mentality," and a hiring formula weighting technical skill at 49% and hospitality quotient (HQ) at 51%, including the interview question about others' greatest misperception of a candidate.
Meyer told stories of a reservationist named Caitlin who recognized a caller's stroke and later trained in aphasia therapy, and of a mid-1990s Gramercy Tavern guest complaint about salmon that led him to articulate enlightened hospitality and conclude that without language a leader cannot teach. He distinguished being nice from being kind, citing individual conversations during COVID-19 layoffs, and recounted how a 2001 Madison Square Park hot dog cart supporting an art installation became Shake Shack, now 700 locations in 22 countries, whose original kiosk pays nearly a million dollars a year in rent to the park.
Chapters
- 1:26
Introduction and how you make people feel
Hawk introduces Meyer and asks about the origin of his signature line from Setting the Table.
Linked moment · 5:16Skip to 5:16 using a listen link in the info box.
5:16Optimism and hope
Meyer discusses optimism as a bell curve and learning to lead volunteers on a political campaign.
- 8:47
Culture as soil when scaling
Meyer argues culture is the soil a growing business needs and that hiring and promotions signal what leaders value.
- 12:53
Curiosity and entrepreneurship
Meyer names curiosity as the behavior he celebrates most and describes entrepreneurs as upsighted persuaders.
- 15:44
Lessons from sales
Meyer recalls selling anti-shoplifting tags in New York and what it taught him about relationships and competition.
- 19:45
Entrepreneurial athleticism and day one mentality
Meyer defines athleticism in leaders and the practice of treating every day like opening day.
- 23:14
The 49/51 hiring formula
Meyer explains weighting technical skills against hospitality quotient and his interview techniques.
- 29:33
Caitlin's story and heart share
Meyer recounts a reservationist who saved a caller having a stroke and distinguishes mind share from heart share and the golden rule of hospitality.
- 35:31
The salmon complaint and enlightened hospitality
Meyer describes a Gramercy Tavern guest complaint that led him to articulate enlightened hospitality.
- 41:03
Nice versus kind and pandemic layoffs
Meyer distinguishes niceness from kindness, including how his company handled COVID-19 layoffs.
- 44:55
Shake Shack origin story
Meyer tells how a hot dog cart in Madison Square Park evolved into Shake Shack.
- 50:06
Champagne question and takeaways
Meyer shares what he hopes to celebrate in a year and Hawk summarizes key takeaways.
Key points
What was said, by whom, with the exact words. Timestamps jump to the moment.
- Danny Meyer
Meyer argues that a growing business needs funding and leadership but also culture, which he likens to soil.
“It needs the soil. And the soil is the culture. The culture is... what the plant is growing in”
- Danny Meyer
Meyer says the best way to scale culture is to be explicit about which behaviors are celebrated and which are not tolerated.
“be really, really clear with everyone in the company which behaviors we are going to celebrate and which behaviors we are not going to tolerate”
- Danny Meyer
Meyer argues that compromising on skills or character in hires and promotions sends a message that stated values were not meant.
“Because every time you compromise on either one of those, you're sending a powerful message, maybe unwittingly, but you are sending a powerful message to everybody else”
- Danny Meyer
Meyer describes curiosity as the crucial fuel for entrepreneurial spirit and says entrepreneurs see only what could go right.
“I think that curiosity is the crucial fuel for entrepreneurial spirit”
- Ryan Hawk
Hawk recommends that uncertain young graduates take a sales job because the skills are portable.
“if there's any like young person who isn't quite sure what they want to do when they graduate college i tell them to get a sales job”
- Danny Meyer
Meyer says every job benefits from good sales and writing skills.
“There's no job I've ever seen that doesn't benefit from good sales skills and good writing skills, I might add”
- Danny Meyer
Meyer explains his hiring recipe weights technical skills at 49% and character, measured as hospitality quotient, at 51%.
“49% of what I'm looking for is how well I think this person can do the job we will be paying them to do”
- Danny Meyer
Meyer says his own high HQ can be a liability when interviewing because his job is to assess rather than make the candidate feel good.
“when I'm interviewing, it shouldn't be my job to make you feel better”
- Danny Meyer
Meyer says he tests self-awareness by asking candidates about the greatest misperception others have of them rather than asking directly.
“I would never ask somebody, by the way, are you self-aware? Because they'll say, yes, of course I am”
- Danny Meyer
Meyer contrasts the traditional golden rule with a golden rule of hospitality based on what others would want.
“the golden rule of hospitality is, is do unto others as you believe they would want done unto them”
- Danny Meyer
Meyer says a Gramercy Tavern guest complaint taught him that leaders must articulate values in words to teach them.
“If you don't have language, you cannot teach. And I did not have language and I was not teaching”
- Danny Meyer
Meyer describes enlightened hospitality as prioritizing employees first, then guests, community and suppliers, and finally investors.
“from now on, the first customer we have here is you. The way you treat each other with a generous spirit and with a charitable assumption”
- Danny Meyer
Meyer distinguishes nice from kind and says the kind approach to pandemic layoffs was speaking with each of several hundred employees individually.
“No one got laid off by tweet. No one got laid off by a big mass email. Everyone got spoken to by their boss”
- Danny Meyer
Meyer recounts that the hot dog cart made $7,500 in its third year after pledging profits to the Madison Square Park Conservancy, prompting the permanent kiosk.
“Wouldn't you know, in year three, just by saying that, we made $7,500. And that's when I got the idea, let's turn this hot dog cart into a permanent kiosk”
- Danny Meyer
Meyer says the original Shake Shack pays nearly a million dollars a year in rent to Madison Square Park.
“that first Shake Shack in Madison Square Park pays just shy of a million dollars a year in rent to that park”
People
In the conversation
- Ryan HawkHost of The Learning Leader Show and author of The Price of Becoming
- Danny MeyerAmerican restaurateur, founder of Union Square Hospitality Group and Shake Shack
Discussed
- Shimon PeresFormer Israeli president and prime minister, quoted on optimists and pessimists
- Dan PinkAuthor who has written that everyone is in sales
- Billy ShoreAuthor of The Cathedral Within and founder of Share Our Strength
- Jason GaynardFriend of Hawk credited with the champagne question
Topics
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From the publisher
The Learning Leader Show with Ryan Hawk www.LearningLeader.com My new book, The Price of Becoming , is a USA Today, LA Times, Success Magazine, and Publishers Weekly bestseller! I think you'll find it useful. Connect with me on Twitter/X: @RyanHawk12 Instagram: @RyanHawk12 Sign up for Mindful Monday (it's free): This is brought to you by Insight Global . If you need to hire one person, hire a team of people, or transform your business through Talent or Technical Services, Insight Global's team of 30,000 people around the world has the hustle and grit to deliver. My guest: Danny Meyer is the founder of Union Square Hospitality Group and one of the most influential restaurateurs of his generation. He built New York landmarks like Union Square Cafe and Gramercy Tavern, and Shake Shack... He's the author of the classic Setting the Table and the new What Could Possibly Go Right? Key Learnings "Business, like life, is all about how you make people feel. It's that simple and it's that hard." "Optimists and pessimists die the same way. They just live differently." Shimon Peres. Danny prefers to live as an optimist. Most people respond to hope. A few will come out of a dark closet hopping on a pogo stick and a few will walk on the shady side no matter what. Most people start the day intending to make it better than yesterday, and they'll follow someone who shows them how that could happen. A growing business needs funding and leadership. It also needs soil. Like a plant needs sun and water and still needs something to grow in. The soil is the culture, and it determines whether anything you plant actually grows. Be explicit about which behaviors you celebrate and which you won't tolerate. Then be relentlessly consistent about both. That's how culture survives you not being in the room. Everyone is watching who gets hired, promoted, and paid. Every time you compromise on either the skills or the character, you send a message that you didn't mean any of the words. Probably unw…
Summary, chapters and key points were generated from the episode transcript on September 28, 2026. Quotes are checked word for word against the transcript.