Stop Wasting Your Time: How to Deal With People Who Won’t Change & What to Do Instead
Episode of The Mel Robbins Podcast · August 27, 2026 · 1 h 10 min
Mel Robbins and social psychologist Dolly Chugh discuss why people resist change and research-backed tools for influencing others without nagging.
Summary
Mel Robbins hosted NYU Stern professor and social psychologist Dolly Chugh for a conversation about why people fail to change even when they know better, and what actually helps someone else change. Chugh described two mental "bodyguards" — energy and ego — that keep people on autopilot and protect their identity and sense of agency, and used the Stroop test as a live demonstration of how hard it is to "unlearn" an automatic behavior. She argued that change requires unlearning before learning, and that recognizing this should produce more empathy toward people who are struggling to change.
Chugh contrasted trying to "prove" oneself a good person with "improving" as a "good-ish" person, saying that fixed moral self-definitions lead to defensiveness and learned helplessness. She recommended ending the day by asking "what did I learn" and "did I try my best" rather than judging success or failure, a practice she and her husband applied to their children's schoolwork.
On influencing others, Chugh said there are only three realistic options — model change, invite change and reward change — and that no one can be made to change. She illustrated modeling with the fable of Mahatma Gandhi and the child who ate only sugar. She distinguished "push" from "pull" techniques, endorsed the WAIT rule ("Why am I talking?") popularized by Michael Bungay Stanier, and offered the question "do you want to be heard, hugged, helped, or high-fived?" before giving advice, noting that in her experience about 90% of people answer "heard."
The pair also covered handling insulting people by "taking the oxygen out" rather than arguing, giving feedback in behaviors rather than adjectives, the 1-to-10 rule Chugh uses with her MBA students and in her marriage, and the line between supporting and enabling adult children. Robbins shared a first-hand account of using behavior-based feedback with her son Oakley and his friends over a messy bunk room, and said she planned to adopt Chugh's classroom practices of "shout outs" and "own its" in her own meetings.
Chapters
- 0:00
Introduction and the promise of the episode
Mel Robbins introduces Dolly Chugh and previews tools for dealing with people who won't change.
- 5:16
The two bodyguards: energy and ego
Chugh explains why knowing better doesn't produce doing better, describing autopilot thinking and identity protection.
- 12:55
The Stroop test and unlearning
Chugh runs Robbins through a color-word exercise to demonstrate the friction of unlearning an automatic skill.
- 17:46
Proving versus improving
Chugh argues that defending mistakes blocks learning and introduces the idea of being a "good-ish" person.
- 24:02
Two end-of-day questions
Chugh recommends asking what you learned and whether you tried your best instead of judging success.
- 30:11
Push versus pull and the three ways to help others change
Chugh distinguishes push from pull influence and says you can only model, invite and reward change, illustrated by a Gandhi fable.
- 37:52
The WAIT rule and heard, hugged, helped or high-fived
Chugh explains when advice backfires and offers a four-option question to ask before helping.
- 41:55
Handling difficult and defensive people
Chugh advises taking the oxygen out of jabs and giving feedback in behaviors rather than adjectives.
- 48:06
Robbins's bunk room story
Robbins recounts using behavior-based feedback with her son and his friends instead of erupting.
- 51:59
The 1 to 10 rule
Chugh describes rating how important an issue is on a 1-to-10 scale to defuse household conflict.
- 55:47
Supporting versus enabling
Chugh and Robbins discuss the pain of watching a loved one suffer and when help becomes propping up a dynamic.
- 59:56
Shout outs, own its and closing reflections
Chugh shares two classroom practices and urges listeners to become lifelong unlearners.
Key points
What was said, by whom, with the exact words. Timestamps jump to the moment.
- Dolly Chugh
Chugh says most mental activity is small automatic thoughts rather than conscious ones, citing a study of roughly 11 million thoughts in a finger snap.
“in that snap of the fingers, 11 million... little tea thoughts. They say maybe like 40 big tea thoughts, actual thoughts”
- Dolly Chugh
Chugh identifies the desire not to be told what to do as agency, a fundamental human need.
“And that's called agency. It's a fundamental human need that I'm my own person. Don't tell me what to do”
- Dolly Chugh
Chugh says the Stroop test works because the participant is being asked to unlearn reading, which is what change feels like.
“Unlearning is a two-step process because first I've got to let go of the thing I already know how to do. And then I've got to learn the new thing”
- Dolly Chugh
Chugh argues people demand grace for their own learning curve while demanding accountability from everyone else.
“We want grace for our own mistakes and learning curve, and we want accountability for everyone else's”
- Dolly Chugh
Chugh argues that deciding you are a good person leads to proving rather than improving.
“as soon as we decide we're a good person, we're trying to prove it instead of trying to improve towards it”
- Dolly Chugh
Chugh contrasts the static label of a good person with the continual improvement of a good-ish person.
“Being a good person is a static. You either are or you're not. A good-ish person is someone who's always trying to get better”
- Dolly Chugh
Chugh says feeling like a failure is exhausting and can produce learned helplessness.
“what's particularly exhausting is feeling like a failure. It leads to what psychologists call learned helplessness”
- Dolly Chugh
Chugh recommends ending each day by asking what you learned and whether you tried your best rather than whether you succeeded.
“Not did I get it right or wrong? It's what did I learn and did I try my best?”
- Dolly Chugh
Chugh states there are only three things you can do to help someone change and that you cannot make anyone change.
“You can model change. You can invite change. You can reward change. But you cannot make anyone change”
- Dolly Chugh
Chugh uses the Gandhi sugar fable to argue that modeling a change yourself must precede asking it of others.
“And he said, because two weeks ago, I was still eating sugar”
- Dolly Chugh
Chugh explains the WAIT rule as a reminder that talking about someone else's problem removes their agency.
“The weight rule reminds us that when we're talking... especially if we're talking about someone else's problem, we're almost always talking at them, which means that agency, that sense of I am my own boss, we're taking it away”
- Dolly Chugh
Chugh recommends asking whether someone wants to be heard, hugged, helped or high-fived before offering advice.
“Do you want to be heard, hugged, or helped? And then my addition to that rule is, or high-fived”
- Dolly Chugh
Chugh says that when she asks the four-option question, about 90% of people say they want to be heard.
“I think 90% of the time the answer I receive is heard”
- Dolly Chugh
Chugh advises depriving someone who makes cutting remarks of oxygen rather than arguing back.
“rather than giving them more oxygen by going back and forth, we can take some of the oxygen out”
- Dolly Chugh
Chugh argues that feedback framed in adjectives invites defensiveness while behavior-based feedback is hard to dispute.
“when we give feedback that's in adjectives, It's really easy for other people to become defensive because it's easy for them to argue with it”
- Mel Robbins
Robbins recounts replacing an angry phone call with a text containing photos and questions after finding her son's friends had left the bunk room a mess.
“So normally the old Mel volcano would pick up the phone and call Oakley and be like, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And I took a deep breath and I put them all on text”
- Dolly Chugh
Chugh says good feedback states the expectation, the observed behavior and the impact, and that the adjective is the least useful part.
“So you stated the expectation. You gave what you observed in the behavior. And then you described the impact it had”
Linked moment · 52:51Skip to 52:51 using a listen link in the info box.
Dolly ChughChugh describes the 1 to 10 rule she teaches MBA students and uses in her marriage to gauge how important a disagreement really is.
“on a scale of 1 to 10, how important is this? 10 is the most important”
- Dolly Chugh
Chugh says she and her husband let the higher number win when both are between one and seven and only discuss issues rated eight or above.
“if both of us are between one and seven, then whoever's the higher number wins. And like, why are we even talking about this?”
- Dolly Chugh
Chugh says watching a loved one suffer while powerless is her definition of hell on earth and that acting to relieve that feeling may make things worse.
“My definition of hell on earth is watching someone I love suffer and not being able to do anything about it”
- Dolly Chugh
Chugh argues that helping to relieve one's own distress centers one's own needs and obscures what the other person needs.
“by me doing the things that make me feel better, it's a little harder for me to see what they need”
- Dolly Chugh
Chugh's closing recommendation is that listeners become lifelong unlearners as well as lifelong learners.
“What would it mean to be a lifelong learner and a lifelong unlearner?”
People
In the conversation
- Mel RobbinsAmerican author, podcast host and former lawyer who hosts The Mel Robbins Podcast
- Dolly ChughSocial psychologist, behavioral scientist and professor at NYU Stern School of Business
Discussed
- Maya AngelouAmerican poet and author quoted for "when you know better, you do better"
- Mahatma GandhiIndian independence leader featured in a fable about modeling change
- Michael Bungay StanierAuthor of The Coaching Habit, credited with popularizing the WAIT rule
- Jefferson FisherCommunication expert whose line about saying something out loud Robbins cites
- Christopher RobbinsMel Robbins's husband
- Oakley RobbinsMel Robbins's 21-year-old son who runs a window washing business
Topics
- Behavior change
- Unlearning
- Good-ish person framework
- Stroop test
- Giving and receiving feedback
- WAIT rule (Why Am I Talking)
- Agency (psychology)
- Enabling versus supporting
- 1 to 10 rule
- Push versus pull influence
- Parenting adult children
- The Coaching Habit
- NYU Stern School of Business
- Learned helplessness
- Mahatma Gandhi sugar fable
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From the publisher
There’s someone in your life you wish would change. You’ve pushed, reminded, and given advice. You’ve had the same conversation over and over. And somehow, you’re still stuck in the same frustrating cycle of fighting, nagging, lecturing, and hoping they’ll finally do something differently. There is a better way. In today’s conversation, Mel sits down with renowned behavioral scientist and award-winning NYU professor Dr. Dolly Chugh to unpack the surprising science of why people resist change and what really works. You’re going to walk away with some of the most powerful, research-backed tools Dr. Chugh teaches at NYU – tools that will change how you see difficult people, frustrating relationships, and your own ability to influence how others behave. You’ll learn: -The 3 things that really do help when someone you love won’t change -The simple question to ask before giving advice – so it doesn’t backfire -The 4-option question that reveals what someone needs from you in a difficult moment -The relationship tool that keeps small problems from turning into 10-out-of-10 fights -How to tell when “helping” someone is keeping them stuck -The 2 “bodyguards” in your brain that explain why you know better but still don’t do better -Why your brain can fight change even when you desperately want it -The surprising role “unlearning” plays in changing a habit or behavior If you’re exhausted from trying to change someone you love, this conversation will give you a different way forward – starting today – that feels lighter, more hopeful, and extremely doable. Your relationships will never be the same. And neither will you. For more resources related to today’s episode, click here for the podcast episode page. If you liked this episode, listen to this one next: How to Become More Confident, Influential, and Communicate Better With #1 Harvard Business Professor Mel also wants to tell you: Try the 23g protein shot I drink every single morning Join 2 million readers loving my weekly…
Summary, chapters and key points were generated from the episode transcript on September 26, 2026. Quotes are checked word for word against the transcript.